Nobody Cares about Britain

Innula Zenovka

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Honestly, I feel like this was mostly written to reassure himself that what's happening over here can't happen over there. A lot of his examples feel cherry picked. ...I could easily cherry pick other examples of how Xenophobia and far right tendencies are definitely growing over there. The queer community has nicknamed UK as "TERF Island" for a reason. And open racism against Indian people in particular is exploding as authorities try to contain it. I get the impression a lot of Europeans desperately want to pretend racism and anti-racism isn't also their problem but it certainly is. I know Trump has scared people over there away from their own far right politicians but I worry that is temporary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for other countries to resist this as long as they can, but denial isn't helping anyone.
How familiar are you with the UK? It's news to me, for example, that "open racism against Indian people in particular is exploding as authorities try to contain it". There's certainly a lot of racism against asylum seekers who've arrived irregularly in small boats crossing the Channel. They're mostly from Albania, the Middle East and Afghanistan, though.

The far right have tried, without significant success, to demonise Pakistani communities, but I think that's had traction mostly among people who hated Pakistanis anyway.

As to why "The queer community has nicknamed UK as "TERF Island" for a reason," I'd hazard a guess that, at least for those members of the queer community who don't live in the UK, the reason has a lot to do with what they've read online rather than first hand knowledge. Not being a trained pediatrician, endocrinologist or psychologist, I don't consider myself qualified to judge the merits of the Cass Report, so I have to be guided by the same authorities to whom I would turn for guidance on other medical matters (NHS England, the various medical Royal Colleges etc), just as I'm guided by them on, for example, matters such as the safety of various vaccines.

Generally, though, while certainly there's been a great deal of transphobic rhetoric, primarily from the standpoint of gender-critical feminists rather than from right-wing male politicians, it's not an issue that's ever really gained much political traction outside social media and extremely online Westminster politicians. The Conservative leader, Kemi Badenoch, gets upset about it -- primarily, as far as I can tell, because she's concerned that young teenage girls who are confused about their sexual orientation have been misdiagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria -- but it's not really something that resonates with the public at large.

Certainly we don't have anything equivalent to the white Evangelicals over here (at least not on the UK mainland -- they've got them NI in the form of the more extreme Unionist), and the anti abortion movement are little more popular than Just Stop Oil.

Interestingly, the biggest problems faced by our emergent far right -- in the form of Nigel Farage's Reform Party -- are Donald Trump, Elon Musk and the US Conservative movement, who are generally despised over here by people from all political groupings. Farage now has a real problem with his own supporters because he's so closely identified himself with Trump in the past, and Reform supporters are almost as pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin as anyone else. Similarly, more mainstream Conservatives who, only a few months ago were trying to hitch themselves to Trump's rising star are now very embarrassed about their support for someone who's looking more and more hostile to the UK.

The political geography over here is very different from that in the US, too. Trump succeeded by launching a hostile takeover of a largely un-resisting Republican Party. Farage has made it clear that he's interested in replacing the Conservatives, not taking them over, and even he and the Conservatives do strike some kind of deal in the next election, that's primarily going to benefit Reform in constituencies where they came second to Labour last time, with the Conservatives in third place or lower, and Lib Dems in the more prosperous, traditionally Conservative areas in the more prosperous areas of the country, which are also generally socially liberal and supported Remain in the EU referendum, and in with the Lib Dems did remarkably well last time round.

We're also, unlike the US, a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democracy with a robustly independent judiciary. This has several consequences, one of which is that, as monarch, King Charles enjoys many of the powers that Trump, as Chief Executive, is abusing in the US, and either delegates them to his Prime Minister or exercises them on the PM's advice. This makes the actions of our Prime Minister and government subject to judicial oversight and review in a way that's just not possible in the US, as both Theresa May and Boris Johnson discovered. A British Prime Minister, furthermore, lacks the independent democratic legitimacy that a US President enjoys, because the President is directly elected and the PM isn't. The PM, for all practical purposes, serves at the pleasure of his or her parliamentary party. This makes a very big difference, I think.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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How familiar are you with the UK? It's news to me, for example, that "open racism against Indian people in particular is exploding as authorities try to contain it". There's certainly a lot of racism against asylum seekers who've arrived irregularly in small boats crossing the Channel. They're mostly from Albania, the Middle East and Afghanistan, though.

The far right have tried, without significant success, to demonise Pakistani communities, but I think that's had traction mostly among people who hated Pakistanis anyway.
I readily grant that my information comes form news and talking to people for the most part since I have never lived in the UK, but we hear a lot of stories about harassment of non white football players for example. That is concerning since even over here that is less common. I've also seen a lot of nasty things said by British people online about the new Mayor of London being Indian.

Let me put it this way, nobody in my inner circle is proudly racist but I accept mountains of evidence that many Americans are proudly racist. I agree UK seems to have less of a problem but it seems to be more of a matter of degree rather than a huge fundamental difference to me. I see it as a sliding scale rather than a big wall of difference.

As to why "The queer community has nicknamed UK as "TERF Island" for a reason," I'd hazard a guess that, at least for those members of the queer community who don't live in the UK, the reason has a lot to do with what they've read online rather than first hand knowledge. Not being a trained pediatrician, endocrinologist or psychologist, I don't consider myself qualified to judge the merits of the Cass Report, so I have to be guided by the same authorities to whom I would turn for guidance on other medical matters (NHS England, the various medical Royal Colleges etc), just as I'm guided by them on, for example, matters such as the safety of various vaccines.

Generally, though, while certainly there's been a great deal of transphobic rhetoric, primarily from the standpoint of gender-critical feminists rather than from right-wing male politicians, it's not an issue that's ever really gained much political traction outside social media and extremely online Westminster politicians. The Conservative leader, Kemi Badenoch, gets upset about it -- primarily, as far as I can tell, because she's concerned that young teenage girls who are confused about their sexual orientation have been misdiagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria -- but it's not really something that resonates with the public at large.
I don't have any data for 2024 that I could find but violent attacks against transgender people rose by 11% in 2023 and that was widely reported. It's thought this is largely due to the rhetoric going on over there. Though obviously the "TERF Island" reputation is often linked to certain gender-criticals like Rowling.

Certainly we don't have anything equivalent to the white Evangelicals over here (at least not on the UK mainland -- they've got them NI in the form of the more extreme Unionist), and the anti abortion movement are little more popular than Just Stop Oil.
I will agree with this point. You're still a lot less religious, though many on the far right are not very religious. A major difference between many Gen-Z alt right people versus old traditional conservatives is that they are often a lot less religious.

Interestingly, the biggest problems faced by our emergent far right -- in the form of Nigel Farage's Reform Party -- are Donald Trump, Elon Musk and the US Conservative movement, who are generally despised over here by people from all political groupings. Farage now has a real problem with his own supporters because he's so closely identified himself with Trump in the past, and Reform supporters are almost as pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin as anyone else. Similarly, more mainstream Conservatives who, only a few months ago were trying to hitch themselves to Trump's rising star are now very embarrassed about their support for someone who's looking more and more hostile to the UK.
I'm aware of the fact that the far right over here embarrassed the far right in other nations. This is a good thing, but I fear it's temporary.

We're also, unlike the US, a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democracy with a robustly independent judiciary. This has several consequences, one of which is that, as monarch, King Charles enjoys many of the powers that Trump, as Chief Executive, is abusing in the US, and either delegates them to his Prime Minister or exercises them on the PM's advice. This makes the actions of our Prime Minister and government subject to judicial oversight and review in a way that's just not possible in the US, as both Theresa May and Boris Johnson discovered. A British Prime Minister, furthermore, lacks the independent democratic legitimacy that a US President enjoys, because the President is directly elected and the PM isn't. The PM, for all practical purposes, serves at the pleasure of his or her parliamentary party. This makes a very big difference, I think.
We thought our Judiciary was very independent for a long time too.... It's obviously been steam rolled now. I think a major facet of Trump's power is his cult of personality. If we switched to a Parliamentary system tomorrow somehow, he'd be named PM right away and his party would still be too scared to oppose him.

In summary, I agree you're in a better spot for now... but I think there is some long term signs it could slide in the wrong direction too. The Brexit vote was arguably a strong sign of some bad sentiments over there. I agree the Buffoonery of Trump and Musk is pushing people in the right direction right now. ...and that's great; but I'm a bit worried of where this could go in another decade.

I think the biggest reason to be concerned about the UK and the rest of the world slipping further from liberal democracy is that our toxic online culture seems to be spreading to young people in many other places. The way Trump won over Gen-Z men here shocked me and that culture misinformation is spreading.

 

CronoCloud Creeggan

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Though obviously the "TERF Island" reputation is often linked to certain gender-criticals like Rowling.
The UK was considered "TERF Island" loooong before Rowling came out as one. It had a reputation for anti-trans 2nd wave rad-fem bullshit back in the late 90's/early aughts.

In summary, I agree you're in a better spot for now... but I think there is some long term signs it could slide in the wrong direction too. The Brexit vote was arguably a strong sign of some bad sentiments over there.
Yep.

I think the biggest reason to be concerned about the UK and the rest of the world slipping further from liberal democracy is that our toxic online culture
I firmly believe that our online culture became MORE toxic under influence from our young men coming in more contact with eastern europeans (especially Russians, Belarussians, and Hungarians) online. And I'm quite sure the Russian government has had their internet influencers encouraging edgelordism, transphobia, misogyny and so forth in online American men/teens since around 2010.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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I really wonder what took that guy so long to understand that. No sane German ever would consider Switzerland being similar to Germany, despite a huge part of it speaks its own version of German, has German street names, signs and town names. It's a very different culture, as everybody in Germany understands. This is common knowledge.

America was founded on the principle to be very, very different than the British Empire, and as secondary consequence also old Europe. The 1st French Republic happened later. The empire back then still had a stronger king, America was a republic and democracy right from the beginning. And as first step the British settlers had to get rid of thinking about themselves as that, embracing instead a new identity as Americans. This opened the door for many more changes, and the rest is history.

And the differences are no wonder when you consider that probably many people back then in the 18th century moved to the British colonies, because they were too frustrated about the narrow leeway they got in British mainland, hoping to find a more relaxed one in America.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I readily grant that my information comes form news and talking to people for the most part since I have never lived in the UK, but we hear a lot of stories about harassment of non white football players for example. That is concerning since even over here that is less common. I've also seen a lot of nasty things said by British people online about the new Mayor of London being Indian.
Sadiq Khan is hardly "the new Mayor of London." He was first elected to that office in 2016, then re-elected in 2021 (the 2020 elections were postponed because of Covid), and then re-elected for an unprecedented third term in 2025. Nor is he Indian. He British and his family is from Pakistan. There's a big difference between British Pakistanis and British Indians, deriving not only from the two countries' different cultures and religions but from the areas from which the original immigrants from those countries were recruited during the 1950s and 1960s, and the sort of jobs they did.

I'm pointing this out not to be pedantic but as an example of how misleading online commentary can be. That's why I tend to rely on media sources I know I can trust, like Reuters, the Times and The Guardian, and other reliable mainstream media. I mean, I see an awful lot of online commentary on the US, both left and right, from US citizens that looks pretty dubious to me, so I discount it most of the time.
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I don't have any data for 2024 that I could find but violent attacks against transgender people rose by 11% in 2023 and that was widely reported. It's thought this is largely due to the rhetoric going on over there. Though obviously the "TERF Island" reputation is often linked to certain gender-criticals like Rowling.
Yes, indeed. However, I'm still not sure how well online activity reflects people's lives. For example, almost all the online UK transphobic commentary I've seen has been about fears about trans men (i.e. assigned male at birth) assaulting cis women or participating in women's sports. A lot of these fears are imaginary - despite all the online concerns expressed about the possibility of CIS women finding themselves incarcerated (not a major concern for most women in the normal course of events) alongside male rapists, I don't think that, in recent years, there have ever been more than 5 or 6 trans women accommodated in English and Welsh women's prisons at any one time, and it's always been the case that the Prison Service determine whether to accommodate a trans prisoner who doesn't have a Gender Recognition Certificate in a men's or a women's prison, just as it's always been the case that the Prison Service has to make special arrangements for inmates who pose a particular danger to other inmates or are at particular risk from them -- and even when they're not, they always seem to be about predatory CIS men disguising themselves as women rather than about trans women.

That is, the discourse is mostly about hypothetical online issues rather than anything actually happening in meatspace (e.g. trans women wanting to be able to use a public bathroom or in-store changing room when necessary without harassment).

It's also remarkable that almost all the debates I've seen online concentrate almost exclusively on trans men, despite the fact that, at least according to the last UK Census, this certainly doesn't reflect reality


Nor do many debates I've seen online or in the media address the -- to my mind noteworthy -- fact that there's been a huge increase in the number of children and teens assigned female at birth seeking treatment for gender dysphoria in the UK



That is, despite the fact they're quite possibly a majority of the trans population of the UK at this point, and certainly were a majority of the patients seen by the Tavistock Clinic in recent years, trans boys and men hardly seem to figure in public consciousness.

(both images taken from https://post.parliament.uk/research-briefings/post-pb-0053/)

We thought our Judiciary was very independent for a long time too.... It's obviously been steam rolled now. I think a major facet of Trump's power is his cult of personality. If we switched to a Parliamentary system tomorrow somehow, he'd be named PM right away and his party would still be too scared to oppose him.

In summary, I agree you're in a better spot for now... but I think there is some long term signs it could slide in the wrong direction too. The Brexit vote was arguably a strong sign of some bad sentiments over there. I agree the Buffoonery of Trump and Musk is pushing people in the right direction right now. ...and that's great; but I'm a bit worried of where this could go in another decade.

I think the biggest reason to be concerned about the UK and the rest of the world slipping further from liberal democracy is that our toxic online culture seems to be spreading to young people in many other places. The way Trump won over Gen-Z men here shocked me and that culture misinformation is spreading.

I would argue, though, that it's potentially misleading to compare the US and the UK because our political structures are so different. We don't have a President, and the role of Prime Minister is not the same as that of your President. The Conservatives ran through 5 Prime Ministers in 10 years, and only one of them left because they were removed by the electorate. The rest left because they'd lost the support of their own party. PMs are frightened of their Members of Parliament over here, not like your Members of Congress and Senators being frightened of Trump.

Our courts are not like your courts -- judges aren't political appointments and, because it's a lot easier for our parliament to pass laws than it is for your congress, it's very well established that it's up to parliament to make laws and the courts to interpret them. We didn't need the Law Lords (as the Supreme Court then were) to legalise abortion, or the Supreme Court to legalise equal marriage because Parliament did that. Similarly, if our government -- whatever the party -- don't like judicial decisions, the judiciary aren't at all worried about telling the government that, if they don't like the law, it's up to them to change it.

Most of the powers your President enjoys as Chief Executive are vested in our Monarch, who either exercises them on the advice of the Prime Minister or delegates them to the PM. In either case they're subject to judicial review in a way your President's decrees and orders aren't. Similarly, it's part of our civil servants' contracts of employment that they can't be made to carry out unlawful instructions, which adds another level of judicial oversight.

I'm not saying that Britain is immune to a far-right takeover, but if it happens it won't be analogous to how Trump has operated because the two societies and their power structures and institutions are very different.

The following is from Out, an hilarious but authoritative account by The Times' political correspondent Tim Shipman of Boris Johnson's premiership. I can't imagine it happening in the US

MacNamara could see Cummings was bristling for a fight, but she was in no mood for equivocation either. She thought it ridiculous that she had had to come in on a day off to point out to the prime minister that he could not just break an Act of Parliament and get away with it. ‘Well you can’t do that,’ she said.

‘Where does it say you can’t do that?’ Cummings asked.

MacNamara warned that if the government set out to break the law, officials would down tools. ‘The civil service can’t work for you. If you want to do that, it’s the law, none of us can work for you.’ The mutiny threat was back.

Cummings had previously contemplated the ultimate photo opportunity to dramatise Johnson’s desire to deliver Brexit. ‘We’ll just barricade the door and the police can fuck off. They’ll have to break the fucking door down.’ Another Vote Leaver said, ‘There was serious conversation about what happens if the police come to arrest the PM. We couldn’t think of a better visual of how determined Boris was to deliver Brexit.’ Johnson chipped in, ‘I’ll barricade myself in.’ He then recounted the story of an uncle who went mad and holed up in Newham Town Hall under police siege. ‘They’ll have to winkle me out with a flamethrower.’ MacNamara thought they had both misunderstood how his scenario would play out. Far from protecting Johnson from a policeman with a warrant for his arrest, those guarding the building would be the ones arresting him. ‘The police don’t work for you in that situation, Dom, they work for me,’ she said. ‘They work for us. It’s not your building. These aren’t your people. The police work for the Queen. We all work for the Queen.’ Johnson confirmed later: ‘She did say that.’

Eddie Lister, who was also present, had another question: ‘Can the Queen sack the prime minister?’

‘Do you really want us to have to advise the monarch that she’s going to have to ask you to stand down?’ MacNamara snapped.

Johnson, losing his nerve, blurted, ‘This might be getting a bit out of hand!’ Another source said, ‘He wasn’t keen to serve at Her Majesty’s pleasure.’
 

GoblinCampFollower

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Sadiq Khan is hardly "the new Mayor of London." He was first elected to that office in 2016, then re-elected in 2021 (the 2020 elections were postponed because of Covid), and then re-elected for an unprecedented third term in 2025. Nor is he Indian. He British and his family is from Pakistan. There's a big difference between British Pakistanis and British Indians, deriving not only from the two countries' different cultures and religions but from the areas from which the original immigrants from those countries were recruited during the 1950s and 1960s, and the sort of jobs they did.

I'm pointing this out not to be pedantic but as an example of how misleading online commentary can be. That's why I tend to rely on media sources I know I can trust, like Reuters, the Times and The Guardian, and other reliable mainstream media. I mean, I see an awful lot of online commentary on the US, both left and right, from US citizens that looks pretty dubious to me, so I discount it most of the time.
I probably misremembered some details. I heard about some of the racist statements from reliable media, but probably got it flipped in my head. Racists also tend to hate everyone who's not like them, not just Indians or Pakistanis etc.

But I also need to point out that most of my knowledge of this growing online bigotry isn't from media, it's straight from the source. I'm in a lot of online communities and some are a bit shady. When I see a lot of racist gossip, I don't believe what they are saying of course, but do believe I see a lot of racism. And a lot of it is coming from people of various countries.

I would argue, though, that it's potentially misleading to compare the US and the UK because our political structures are so different..
Of course, but that's not really the bigger point I'm making. The major issue with all countries is that we're all human, and humans can be very dumb. The major failure here wasn't that we didn't have the right system. It wasn't (just) that we didn't have the right checks and balances, it's that once the Trump cult got strong enough, certain laws, checks and balances stopped being worth the paper they were printed on. If the will to promote a dictator is strong enough, they'll make it work in whatever system..... or just burn it down.

I believe that if a far right leader over there had such a strong cult of personality, Parliament would just rubber stamp whey want. The courts might be an obstacle for a bit... But courts still need enough people to care about their rulings. I believe Hitler isn't the only example of a dictator to tear apart a parliamentary system. I admit to not really knowing how your system compares to what they had at the time, but I do believe that if the will to do this was strong enough, it would happen.

I'm not saying that Britain is immune to a far-right takeover, but if it happens it won't be analogous to how Trump has operated because the two societies and their power structures and institutions are very different.
Of course! ...but I feel like you're getting too caught up in the legal and procedural details, and why those are so different. I'm saying I think you need to zoom out to the big picture about humans. Trump's take over was aided by numerous sympathetic legal scholars over here. A hypothetical British Trump would likely go about things differently, but if they had strong enough of a cult, I think it could happen. The steps would be different, of course.
 

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GoblinCampFollower

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That was a funny article! Americans do use a lot of those.... Hell, I even use some genuinely sometimes. In particular, if I tell someone "I hear what you're saying" that usually means I do NOT think their position is totally insane. I'm more blunt when I think someone is totally wrong. ....unless it's an executive in my company, then I will sugar coat it, haha.

“Ooh could I just squeeze past you?” Translation: “Could you please move out of my way?
This is one in particular that I use a lot and never genuinely. It's usually because some thoughtless jerk is blocking an entire isle in a grocery store!
 

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I was one of the women arrested at a Youth Demand meeting at a Quaker meeting house. Why? | The Independent
On Thursday evening, the Metropolitan Police arrested six women at a meeting of Youth Demand in a Quaker meeting house in central London. I was one of those women.

I am not a member of the climate and pro-Palestine group or any other activist groups. I am a 25-year-old student journalist. It was meant to be a quiet night of research. Instead, I spent the night in a cell in Bromley Police Station.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I really don't see why they, or anyone else,should be surprised this happened.

The Youth Demand website still says

In April, Youth Demand will shut London down with swarming road-blocks day after day after day. Join us in our biggest civil disobedience campaign yet to force action from the criminal British government.

In 2024, we built a national youth resistance organisation. We mobilised over a thousand people to pull off 60 actions, from blockading central London during the summer, plastering a picture from the Gaza genocide on a Picasso painting and shutting down five UK cities in November.
As Youth Demand must know, from the much publicised case of R v Hallam last year, involving Just Stop Oil's plans to blockade the M25 motorway, planning this sort of serious disruption ( "shut[ing] London down with swarming roadblocks day after day after day") is likely to constitute conspiracy to cause a public nuisance, which can lead to substantial prison sentences on conviction. So, of course, is participating in the blockades.

What did they expect to happen?

The Metropolitan Police, I think, must have decided to try to head off the disruption before it started by making these highly publicised arrests and thus reminding potential protestors of the legal risks they run. In this they seem -- so far, at least -- to have been successful since other than an initial, more conventional, protest held on April 1st without incident, Youth Demand seem to have called things off.

People have a right to freedom of assembly and to protest. People also have a right to go peaceably about their lawful business. When the two come into conflict, it's up to the courts to strike a balance between the two, in a way that restricts everyone's conflicting rights as little as possible. So the disruption caused by protests is a price the public as a whole has to pay to uphold freedom of speech and assembly, particularly if the organisers work with the police to agree on measures to mitigate the inevitable disruption, but when the disruption becomes the point of the protest rather than a side-effect, with protestors deliberately using serious disruption as a means of enforcing their demands, it becomes illegal.

I ask myself how I'd want the police to respond if anti-abortion or anti-immigration protestors were to try to enforce their demands by trying to shut down London with swarming roadblocks day after day for a month.
 
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Casey Pelous

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This was the "Related Article" listed at the bottom of the page:


:LOL:
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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An elderly couple who like to keep the heating on at home were left 'shaking in fear' when police burst into their home searching for a cannabis farm – after a thermal camera on a helicopter wrongly identified it as a drugs den.

Pensioners Barry and Mavis Lovelock were finishing their breakfast when the 'terrifying' raid took place.

Nine officers stormed in because a helicopter camera had mistakenly identified their toasty terrace home as a potential cannabis grow.

But after charging upstairs looking for cannabis plants and the strong lamps used to grow them, the sheepish officers came back down empty-handed after quickly concluding their tip-off had been 'not fully accurate'.

The heat signature on the couple's roof had instead been caused by their two gas fires, which they keep on around-the-clock in the colder months.

Leicestershire Police has now apologised.

 

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Innula Zenovka

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Upon seeing the dystopian hellscape the US is becoming, the UK of course has decided to rise to the challenge and try to be worse by creating automated systems to accuse you of crimes before you do anything. Our very own department of pre-crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/uk-creating-prediction-tool-to-identify-people-most-likely-to-kill

they say they are using 'algorithms' to predict criminality but they are very light on just what sort of algorithms they mean. Any decision making system in any computer is an algorithm so that really tells us nothing. However one thing is certain, when you use data from institutions that have institutionalised bigotry you bake that bigotry right into the systems. People then believe what these systems say because "the computer said so". We've seen this attempted before and the results are universally dreadful.