Michael Bloomberg runs for presidency

danielravennest

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If you live in a certain place in Alaska you can see Russia from your house.
Yes, the Diomede Islands, which are 2.33 miles apart. The one on the left is part of Alaska, and has 115 natives living there. The one on the right is part of Siberia, and nobody lives there permanently. Since this is the middle of the Bering Strait, the weather sucks.

 

Brenda Archer

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Yes, the Diomede Islands, which are 2.33 miles apart. The one on the left is part of Alaska, and has 115 natives living there. The one on the right is part of Siberia, and nobody lives there permanently. Since this is the middle of the Bering Strait, the weather sucks.

🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶
 

Kara Spengler

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Totally - funny, was talking about this with the spouse and we were talking about Cronkite and Rather, and the elder Wallace. Oh sure, there was probably still bias, but it was fought, you felt, in the interest of trying to remain 'just the facts'.

And for a long time, I've trusted the Comedians for news, sure its not always facts, but its still truth.
Yeah, take Maddow for example. She puts a lot more work than some in her field I could mention. It is not uncommon to see her grovelling about some insignificant detail in a piece the prior week. Even so, she would be the first one to point out she is a pundit, not a news person.
 

Beebo Brink

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In a typical political cycle someone like Bernie would have been finished with his last loss. The comeback he’s making is unusual. And younger people are less and less white Protestants, so the old fascism can’t recruit them directly as often.
I've stopped viewing the rise of Bernie Sanders as an optimistic sign for this country. It's definitely a sign of some kind, but it's not directly tied to the rise of progressive values. Just this morning I read a post on DU from someone who was discussing politics with their great-nephews. These young men currently support Bernie Sanders, but if he doesn't get the nomination, their fallback is Trump.

So whatever it is about Sanders that appeals to them, it's not progressive values. There is an overlap between Sanders and Trump that has more to do with a perception of him as a disrupter and outsider; he serves as a focal point for inchoate anger at the establishment, but without any real forethought as to what exactly comes after that cathartic moment of saying "Up Yours" to the people in control. These young men obviously don't have any concern about whether a candidate can actually govern effectively and sanely.

I don't believe that these kind of supporters invalidate Sanders, but I recognize that a Sanders win means something very different to some people. Sanders' level of support is not a hopeful sign that the country is coming to its senses and is invested in making this a better place according to my values. A Sanders win would be just as problematic as all the others, just in different ways.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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I've stopped viewing the rise of Bernie Sanders as an optimistic sign for this country. It's definitely a sign of some kind, but it's not directly tied to the rise of progressive values. Just this morning I read a post on DU from someone who was discussing politics with their great-nephews. These young men currently support Bernie Sanders, but if he doesn't get the nomination, their fallback is Trump.

So whatever it is about Sanders that appeals to them, it's not progressive values. There is an overlap between Sanders and Trump that has more to do with a perception of him as a disrupter and outsider; he serves as a focal point for inchoate anger at the establishment, but without any real forethought as to what exactly comes after that cathartic moment of saying "Up Yours" to the people in control. These young men obviously don't have any concern about whether a candidate can actually govern effectively and sanely.

I don't believe that these kind of supporters invalidate Sanders, but I recognize that a Sanders win means something very different to some people. Sanders' level of support is not a hopeful sign that the country is coming to its senses and is invested in making this a better place according to my values. A Sanders win would be just as problematic as all the others, just in different ways.
Honestly, I -like- Bernie himself, politically at least [I'm angry he decided that only he could win against Twitler], but his supporters for the most part have pissed me off to no end. They don't seem to be any more interested in facts as Twitler supporters, even if they do seem to be more progressive in what they want. Of course, these are people around my age, not the Y/Z crowd.
 

Beebo Brink

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Honestly, I -like- Bernie himself, politically at least [I'm angry he decided that only he could win against Twitler], but his supporters for the most part have pissed me off to no end. They don't seem to be any more interested in facts as Twitler supporters, even if they do seem to be more progressive in what they want.
I have similar anecdotal experiences with Buttigieg supporters. It's not that they are overt racists -- just as Buttigieg is not racist -- but there is a level of cluelessness ABOUT racism that is disheartening. Buttigieg means well, and I think he can learn over time, but he's got a ways to go and many of his supporters are way behind him. They get really frustrated, too, with Black People Who Don't Get Pete, and that's truly embarrassing for everyone involved.
 

Kara Spengler

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I've stopped viewing the rise of Bernie Sanders as an optimistic sign for this country. It's definitely a sign of some kind, but it's not directly tied to the rise of progressive values. Just this morning I read a post on DU from someone who was discussing politics with their great-nephews. These young men currently support Bernie Sanders, but if he doesn't get the nomination, their fallback is Trump.

So whatever it is about Sanders that appeals to them, it's not progressive values. There is an overlap between Sanders and Trump that has more to do with a perception of him as a disrupter and outsider; he serves as a focal point for inchoate anger at the establishment, but without any real forethought as to what exactly comes after that cathartic moment of saying "Up Yours" to the people in control. These young men obviously don't have any concern about whether a candidate can actually govern effectively and sanely.

I don't believe that these kind of supporters invalidate Sanders, but I recognize that a Sanders win means something very different to some people. Sanders' level of support is not a hopeful sign that the country is coming to its senses and is invested in making this a better place according to my values. A Sanders win would be just as problematic as all the others, just in different ways.
While that may explain some Sanders supporters, certainly it is not all. In fact, I would argue it is the minority. Most ones I know are pretty politically astute, even ones that will not be able to vote yet next year.
 
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Isabeau

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Pretty sure there are also dems who will vote for trump if Sanders or Warren win the primaries, no? They are just less talked about by big media owners. Gates just said out loud what many "fiscally conservative" are thinking. They don't go by a bro nickname, though. I think and hope that the vast majority of voters will vote for whoever is chosen to go against him. Keep in mind that a majority voted for Clinton.
 

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Pretty sure there are also dems who will vote for trump if Sanders or Warren win the primaries, no? They are just less talked about by big media owners. Gates just said out loud what many "fiscally conservative" are thinking. They don't go by a bro nickname, though. I think and hope that the vast majority of voters will vote for whoever is chosen to go against him. Keep in mind that a majority voted for Clinton.
Oh, I am sure there are. Just like there are others who will vote for the primary winner, Mork from Ork, or just not vote. The supporters of anyone who does not win the primary do that all the time so why should former Sanders supporters doing it surprise anyone if he does not get the nod?
 

Katheryne Helendale

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So whatever it is about Sanders that appeals to them, it's not progressive values. There is an overlap between Sanders and Trump that has more to do with a perception of him as a disrupter and outsider; he serves as a focal point for inchoate anger at the establishment, but without any real forethought as to what exactly comes after that cathartic moment of saying "Up Yours" to the people in control. These young men obviously don't have any concern about whether a candidate can actually govern effectively and sanely.
:qft:

The way I see it, a lot of people support Sanders for much the same reason the average Trumpster supports Trump: Because their respective candidate chafes the other side.
 

Anya Ristow

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...rise of Bernie Sanders...not directly tied to the rise of progressive values. ...overlap between Sanders and Trump that has more to do with a perception of him as a disrupter and outsider; he serves as a focal point for inchoate anger at the establishment
It is both, and I've been saying so for four years.

You'all seem to be fond of the political compass. It purports to plot your position, and the positions of various political figures, on two axis: left/right and libertarian/authoritarian. You seem to accept this as a thing that just is. There are actually many axis, and to the degree that they distinguish people, some are more prominent and useful than others. What happened in 2016 is that a new axis came to prominence, or at least made itself known to be important: establishment/disrupter. On that axis, Trump and Sanders ran on the same side.

I've said that Trump can't legitimately be said to be an outsider when he is a billionaire TV star real estate developer who had the Clitnons at his wedding. But I suppose politically, he actually is an outsider. He's not in that club.

I'd still argue that the vast majority of Sanders supporters are in it for policy. It's just that his progressive policy is also disruptive. I was following the Trump subreddit at the time Sanders lost the nom and I watched as a minority of Sanders supporters who were in it just for the disruption arrived and announced themselves. That movement already happened. There isn't a grand swath of Sanders supporters left to do that again.

I keep telling you that there is not a candidate running who is as divisive as Clinton so there is not a risk of a large Sanders defection to Trump. I actually see the likelihood of the reverse happening if Sanders is the nom, as he is the more credible disrupter. Hopefully Democrats will start to run on Trump's failed promises, as there is an opportunity to discredit him as a disrupter. But not if the Democrats run an establishment candidate.
 

Anya Ristow

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Oh, I am sure there are. Just like there are others who will vote for the primary winner, Mork from Ork, or just not vote. The supporters of anyone who does not win the primary do that all the time so why should former Sanders supporters doing it surprise anyone if he does not get the nod?
There is historically a 10% or so defection rate between the primary and general, and that's about the rate of Sanders defection to Trump. These are people who voted for Sanders for reasons that just aren't well understood by the people reporting it. Some of them are Republicans who voted in the Democratic primary so they'd have a hand in choosing their opponent, either as sabotage or as a hedge. Expect there to be a lot more of them this time, as there will be little reason to vote in the Republican primary.
 

Brenda Archer

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Sanders' core with the young are the people who willingly identify as Socialists, and the media probably does not cover them, but they're all over leftist and counterculture social media. To the extent mass media (all of it corporate) notices these people, they try to misrepresent them. They try very hard to make it look as if people in their twenties and thirties cannot actually have Ideas.
 
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Kara Spengler

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Sanders' core with the young are the people who willingly identify as Socialists, and the media probably does not cover them, but they're all over leftist and counterculture social media. To the extent mass media (all of it corporate) notices these people, they try to misrepresent them. They try very hard to make it look as if people in their twenties and thirties cannot actually have Ideas.
Yes, anyone younger than a boomer is much less likely to be scared off by the word socialist. In response they will google it (or related words since Sanders is a social democrat), look at their own economic situation, and probably decide it makes sense. The younger they are the more likely this is to happen as they look at the mountains of debt coming their way.
 

Beebo Brink

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Actually a lot of things that people accept as 1 dimensional or 2 dimensional concepts are more easily understood as multi-dimensional vectors. Gender, sexuality, and so on. Why would politics be any different?
That political compass can be a useful tool within the context of a conversation about politics, but I've never seen any sign that anyone takes it to the absurd degree that Anya describes. Her chiding is condescending at best.
 
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Anya Ristow

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That political compass can be a useful tool within the context of a conversation about politics, but I've never seen any sign that anyone takes it to the absurd degree that Anya describes.
Are you willing to explain that?

I used the political compass to make a point I thought was non-contentious: that left/right, liberal/conservative, democrat/republican is not the only axis on which people's political thinking lies. It's been used hundreds of times here without complaint. Willing participation. I mention it only because it has already introduced people to the concept I was trying to illustrate, so that I didn't have to do much explaining.

Her chiding is condescending at best.
What chiding?

I've criticized the test itself as a tool of trying to move people's position. You want to be more like Gandhi and Mother Teresa and less like George Bush and Hitler, don't you? You like ice cream and puppies, don't you? Sorry, my contempt for the test itself came out in my post. It wasn't meant as a criticism of anyone here.

But people seem to have accepted its mechanism: plotting two separate political measures on two axis. And this is a sound concept that I find useful and didn't want to have to explain.
 

Beebo Brink

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I used the political compass to make a point I thought was non-contentious: that left/right, liberal/conservative, democrat/republican is not the only axis on which people's political thinking lies. It's been used hundreds of times here without complaint. Willing participation.
I agree that it is non-contentious to suggest alternative paradigms. This may be a tone argument in which I have misinterpreted your intent. To me, you seem to be making your point with condescension. My apologies if that was not an accurate assessment. I'll take a step back from yet another political thread to get my perspective under control.