Is there growing support for a UBI?

OrinB

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“Among the interesting and potentially good things that will come out of the pandemic is a greater appreciation for the community, for care work that is unpaid, for the slow movement, for a sense of community and solidarity, rather than egotism; and for basic security. People with basic security are more altruistic, energetic, innovative, more tolerant of the other. I feel once we have introduced basic income, even on a pilot basis, you will see a surge of people saying this is what we need for our society.”
Although this article is dated approx 2 months into the initial UK lockdown, i feel the questions are still pertinent and relevant today - if not more so! Is anyone aware of any further discussions about this anywhere as i'd be interested to hear view and opinions on this subject. Our governments have paid out tons of money supporting our economies. It's obvious our way of life and more importantly our way of wokring has to change. in order to support these changes are the questions about a UBI useful or an unnecessary distraction?

Angel Merkel has just announced support for businesses with <50 employees by offering them 75% of their November 2019 turnover as a grant. How is this support not equivalent to the amounts ogf money required to support a UBI?

We all have found an innate need to respond to and support our local communities, can we offset the cost of this UBI with the changes to businesses that support our care systems?

Are there any business models that would help to fund a UBI?

Are shirkers and slackers really that much of a problem or just an excuse to dismiss this utopian style of licing? Our benefits system is reporting a massive increase in fraudulent claims. The costs of keeping on top of the fraud are jsutified but at what expense?

So many questions, so many ideas...
 
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Khamon

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Those who can't or won't work, for whatever reasons, can't or won't work for those reasons. We (taxpayers) can either provide a basic income to them or deal with the consequences of poverty. The latter is not working out very well in the US but I don't know if even 2020 can convince people there is a better way.

Everywhere I've worked, and every organization I've belonged to, has included people who contributed little or nothing. We compensate for them because they're people and deserve some dignity and sense of belonging. But we also have co-workers and members that call them "useless" and refuse to cover their responsibilities because it's "not may job."

This is something that I, as a converted Republican, expect to see seriously worked toward when the Democrats are solidly ensconced.
 

Isabeau

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There’s certainly a lot of interest here.


Despite these potential issues, the idea is gaining popularity among everyday Canadians, though with caveats. An Angus Reid Institute opinion poll in June found 59% of respondents supported a basic annual income of up to CA$30,000 ($22,849). A majority said that the rich should foot the bill, but most of the higher earners polled were unwilling to pay more taxes to fund it.
 
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Kathryn Elisabeth

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When I look at UBI, I notice it looks a lot like a farm subsidy .. but for actual people, instead of big business and rich owners of extensive landholdings. So looks really likely to raise real wages for people that would work in addition to taking a UBI. Almost like if trickle down economics, really trickled down, even. Hmmm? People might even be buying more of them 'consumer goods' that makes the Economy churn. Hmmm?

<extra heavy sarcasm>
Is probably Evil then. If Prosperity Jesus wanted them to have money and food and stuff, they would have it.
We can do an 'speriment! Maybe can try the opposite first!
Like in the USA, could try defunding Social Security. Lets see what happens there?
Maybe everyone gets to have billions of moneys! (*coughs* like via wild ass hyperinflation in a crashing economy, but is still billions of moneys)
</extra heavy sarcasm>
 

Kalel

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Are shirkers and slackers really that much of a problem or just an excuse to dismiss this utopian style of licing? Our benefits system is reporting a massive increase in fraudulent claims. The costs of keeping on top of the fraud are justified but at what expense?

So many questions, so many ideas...
its still ingrained into society and peoples minds that we need to work to survive. We reached a point in technology where it isn't necessary anymore. we could easily make machines work for us. if our base needs are taken care of... it would reduce crime and stress, people would be able to move around without worry. some people will be lazy yes as there would be less incentive to work but I disagree.. I don't know if you ever done a staycation before... people will get bored. will start to be more creative ... you want a bigger house for your family? you want that luxury ps5.... your gonna have to get up off your ass and do something with your life... if you want to stay locked up in your tiny government place, that's fine too but your gonna get jealous of people living better than you. I think it would spur a new era in creativity and people who just want to live life...

But we are very short-sighted and it's difficult to grasp scopes of something long term. some people just don't want to help others...or see others benefit cause they didn't work for it or wasn't born with it. we always look to the past for examples in history but until more people are willing to bet on the future... its gonna take a miracle to get everyone on board
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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When I look at UBI, I notice it looks a lot like a farm subsidy .. but for actual people, instead of big business and rich owners of extensive landholdings.
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER
 

Aribeth Zelin

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So, here is the thing about UBI - it needs to be more than just a tiny bit to live on. It needs to be enough so as more and more jobs just become obsolete, that people can have -decent- lives, not hand to mouth [though at least that's better than some folks have].

I mean, if someone is stuck giving up their job to take care of their mother as she goes through dementia, that's not being lazy. If someone is incapable of holding down a normal job because of mental issues, but still does work around the house, that's not being lazy either.

And some of the biggest pools of wealth are held by lazy ass rich people who make money by paying people who work for them too little to live on.

So, really, the entire attitude of not working a job = lazy has got to go away. And UBI must be something where people can actually afford to keep their homes, afford utilities, medical, food and even have a little bit to do something fun with.

Anything else just will not do.
 
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Pancake

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I’m quite torn on UBI, I take whatever position happens to be foremost in my mind that hour. Conceptually I’m not opposed, in fact I think it’s necessary, but when it gets to the details I waiver.

Take the recent Canadian pandemic relief of $500 per week. Great in theory, it saved lives, and under tight deadlines to roll out probably the best that could be done. Then the realities set in.

That amount was so arbitrary and really showed regional discrepancies for cost of living, should UBI be federal or adjusted regionally, and how? Then the fact that those eligible for it were making more than many on disability or old age security pension or parental leave. That couldn’t continue if we went with UBI. Those other programs would have to collapse obviously into the UBI, but then the question of whether or not those who actually cannot work, due to disability or caregiving responsibilities should earn the same as those who do not want to work, or those who want to but cannot currently find a job. My gut tells me we need to protect and support the most vulnerable more than others, but I don’t want to slide down the side of the those who equate not working with being lazy.

Then the whole group of people that are self employed, artists or gig economy who fell through the cracks. I’m not sure how to better handle that.

Then the student population, some post secondary students lost a part time or potential summer job, so were eligible. That’s ok I guess...but then the high school students qualified as well. Does a 16 year old who lives at home and worked 8 hours a week at McDonalds need $500 a week? My gut is no based on the big lottery joke they are treating it as, but then I tell myself UBI shouldn’t be need tested.


Those are just a few of my flip flopping opinions. I know my neighbour and I have discussed that her 4 kids aged 16 to 22 and still living at home brought in a total of $8000 per month from the Covid benefits while her and her husband continued to work. That felt wrong to her, but they decided if everyone else was getting it, might as well get some too. She’s made them put it away for future tuition or down payments on cars, but still.
 
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Spirits Rising

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As someone in the US and on SSI I'll say this: The only way I can see it working properly here is if it is based off of the current most expensive areas to live. It must cover Rent, Utilities (including Internet access), fuel/vehicle costs and leave enough wiggle room to cover emergencies - per individual.

Meaning that someone without a job/between jobs or incapable of getting one/holding one down can afford to live on their own if they so desire or need to.

This will mean a UBI that does not go below the amount given out as a one time Stimulus during this Pandemic (in the States anyway). It will also mean codifying it in such a way as to make it damn near impossible to remove/reduce.

ETA: I say it this way as opposed to having it tied to one's locale and cost of living there simply due to just how variable that can be. Too large a margin for error.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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A major selling point of UBI that even my ultra conservative father acknowledged was the ability to remove +100 mostly redundant welfare bureaucracies. This is also a major selling point of universal healthcare..

I'd love to see UBI introduced at the federal level to see what happens then gradually increase it as more jobs get automated as others have suggested. That said, I'd want to prioritize Universal Healthcare first, since, that is less risky and should still help so many people.
 

danielravennest

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So, really, the entire attitude of not working a job = lazy has got to go away.
Probably the biggest political objection to UBI is "getting money for nothing". One way around that is to frame it as "universal employment". If you can't find something else, the government will hire you something like half-time to do something useful, and pay you for that amount of work. Half time isn't enough to support a family on its own, but assuming two adults in a household (married or not) it would be enough to live on. If you want something better, go out and find another part time job, a full time one, or go to school with the available time.

I would point out that we sort of have basic income programs for older or disabled people - Social Security & SSI. That's considered acceptable because people paid into it.

With increasing automation, the long-run solution is just hand out stuff to people, be that cash or direct products & services on demand. But again, politics will get in the way if it isn't sold the right way.
 

Lexxi

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its still ingrained into society and peoples minds that we need to work to survive. We reached a point in technology where it isn't necessary anymore. we could easily make machines work for us. if our base needs are taken care of... it would reduce crime and stress, people would be able to move around without worry. some people will be lazy yes as there would be less incentive to work but I disagree.. I don't know if you ever done a staycation before... people will get bored. will start to be more creative ... you want a bigger house for your family? you want that luxury ps5.... your gonna have to get up off your ass and do something with your life... if you want to stay locked up in your tiny government place, that's fine too but your gonna get jealous of people living better than you. I think it would spur a new era in creativity and people who just want to live life...

But we are very short-sighted and it's difficult to grasp scopes of something long term. some people just don't want to help others...or see others benefit cause they didn't work for it or wasn't born with it. we always look to the past for examples in history but until more people are willing to bet on the future... its gonna take a miracle to get everyone on board
That reminds me: are there movies, books that do the opposite of what I normally see? You know, the thing like how in Wall-e the humans don't have to work, built machines, etc, so are big huge slugs lying on portable beds. Most movies/books I've seen wherein we move behind 'work to survive' seems to show that to be a big whole problem what will lead to the end of humanity.
 

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I've lived for short periods of time without less than enough to get by. Fortunately at those times, I was able to find support from friends and family, at least enough so I never really was homeless, never fell so deep in a hole I wasn't able to climb out of.
I even found ways to stay online at those times, which is painfully important for a kawaii internet troll like me. :hellokitty:

But I'm very aware it all could have turned out completely different. Having those periods occur at slightly different times in my life would have been enough. So do I think some type of UBI should exist? Boy do I. We can argue the details, but we're at a time when there's no reason we as a community, a culture, a society can't afford to provide it.
 

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That reminds me: are there movies, books that do the opposite of what I normally see? You know, the thing like how in Wall-e the humans don't have to work, built machines, etc, so are big huge slugs lying on portable beds. Most movies/books I've seen wherein we move behind 'work to survive' seems to show that to be a big whole problem what will lead to the end of humanity.
I think Star Trek and The Culture might fit the criteria.
 
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Kalel

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That reminds me: are there movies, books that do the opposite of what I normally see? You know, the thing like how in Wall-e the humans don't have to work, built machines, etc, so are big huge slugs lying on portable beds. Most movies/books I've seen wherein we move behind 'work to survive' seems to show that to be a big whole problem what will lead to the end of humanity.
I call them "What if" movies and tv shows... they are not real but a depiction of a possible scenario.... it's also those same "Whats ifs" that hold us back cause no one really knows what the future will look like. what is the right amount to give? will people spend it properly? do they know how to save money incase of an emergency?

Wall-E has a significant difference as they were already capable of space travel and didn't really make attempts taking care of the environment... big businesses are already making an attempt in RL to curb that and we are already making new technologies to help avoid such a scenario...since this is expensive and takes a long time it's difficult to know if we have been successful at avoiding it.

we have done UBI tests around the world on small scales but results varied. we would need to change regulations and rules around so it's not just simply lifting the minimum income level but actually impacting the foundation of inequality. The Coronavirus stimulus check was a good example of how out of touch our government is compared to other countries. Until we fix unlying issues, we would just be throwing money around and they don't want that.


 
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OrinB

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The whole point of this would be that costs of living would equalise. That is biggest thing that people need to come to terms wiht. Us, our governments, our investment plans, our insurance providers and our helthcare systems. It's not designed to be a "socialism" thing. It's more of a united humanity goal. Our whole spending goals would change. work would become a pleasure and a means of providing sustencance to our sous rather than some of the osul less and pointless money making schemes in order to fit into a very enequal society. There is obviously a smaetting of cummunism in the thoughts, but the idea is that everyone needs to change and the impact of ourselves on the planet and iwthin society will be skewed effectively making one up manship and social climbing irrelevant.

It's amassive change, but we ar epaving th way for these thoughts. they just need more discussion and rationalisation.
 

Josette Molinuex

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When I look at UBI, I notice it looks a lot like a farm subsidy .. but for actual people, instead of big business and rich owners of extensive landholdings. So looks really likely to raise real wages for people that would work in addition to taking a UBI. Almost like if trickle down economics, really trickled down, even. Hmmm? People might even be buying more of them 'consumer goods' that makes the Economy churn. Hmmm?
Stop making sense!