Ilhan Omar Remarks Divide Democrats

Cristiano

I AM BABY GROOT
Admin
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
1,722
SL Rez
2002
Joined SLU
Nov 2003
SLU Posts
35836
Democrats are struggling to handle the firestorm over comments made by Rep. Ilhan Omar regarding Israel. She has received support from Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren and others, while some others have said her remarks are anti-Semitic. Republicans predictably are clutching their pearls and trying to paint Omar as a Jew hating Muslim.

Democrats Struggle To Find A Way Out Of The Ilhan Omar Mess | HuffPost

This is an interesting perspective on it:

Open letter to Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic House
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
803
There are two comments in the Haaretz about her - Israel's biggest newspaper. Just turn Javascript off in order to read it...

One pro Ilhan Omar: Keep it up, Ilhan Omar | Opinion
One contra Ilhan Omar: Ilhan Omar just doesn’t get why Americans support Israel | Opinion

Personally I do still find this old interview with Hirsi Ali about the Palestenian-Israel-debacle worth a read: http://www.israelhayom.com/2017/07/23/even-if-you-give-up-all-the-land-it-wont-solve-the-problems-in-the-mideast/

By the way since she supports the BDS movement, she's of course a target for Republicans and others.

The thing is that most Arabic countries in the neighborhood of Israel nowadays just dislike the Palestenians, who are Arabic anyway. Until 1990 they were quite welcome as guest workers, like today Indians and Bangladeshis are in Saudi Arabia. But since Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1990, where Palestina officially sided with Iraq, those times are over.
 
Last edited:

Bartholomew Gallacher

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
803
I disagree; while per se Omar doesn't seem to be antisemitic, she already fell several times into the trap of using well known, antisemitic tropes. And that's a problem she can only solve on her own.

Siding with Palestine and demanding upholding humanic standards and treatments, like she does, is fine. But what I've been clearly missing so far from her and was unable to find is any kind of statement by her where she condemns the ruling organisation of the Gaza strip, the Hamas. The Hamas strictly denies Israel's right of existence. As long as Hamas is Palestine's ruling power, there will be no peace.

So this makes her critic really one sided.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Kaimi Kyomoon

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
517
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
There are two comments in the Haaretz about her - Israel's biggest newspaper. Just turn Javascript off in order to read it...

One pro Ilhan Omar: Keep it up, Ilhan Omar | Opinion
One contra Ilhan Omar: Ilhan Omar just doesn’t get why Americans support Israel | Opinion

Personally I do still find this old interview with Hirsi Ali about the Palestenian-Israel-debacle worth a read: http://www.israelhayom.com/2017/07/23/even-if-you-give-up-all-the-land-it-wont-solve-the-problems-in-the-mideast/

By the way since she supports the BDS movement, she's of course a target for Republicans and others.

The thing is that most Arabic countries in the neighborhood of Israel nowadays just dislike the Palestenians, who are Arabic anyway. Until 1990 they were quite welcome as guest workers, like today Indians and Bangladeshis are in Saudi Arabia. But since Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1990, where Palestina officially sided with Iraq, those times are over.

I couldn't get to the Haaretz articles and Hirsi Ali's article wasn't persuasive. Certainly there are culture clashes going on but there's more to this than simple intransigence on the part of the Palestinians. To Americans the parallels with colonialism and land dispossession in our own history seem blatantly obvious. I feel for Israel and don't want it to be attacked, but settler expansion is a problem, not a solution.
 

Lianne Marten

Cheese Baron
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
299
Location
WA, USA
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
Sept 18 2007
SLU Posts
3367
Criticizing Israel is not in and of itself antisemitic. In fact the argument that criticism of Israel is criticism of Jewish people themselves, because all Jewish people are loyal to Israel I guess, is incredibly so. That's like, the entire argument that a lot of them (racists) make, that a person can't be both Jewish and American because their loyalty will always be to Israel.

It's bullshit.

Her only mistake was not realizing just how absolutely correct she was.
 

Ellie

Heretical Raccoon Skunk with a Rainbow Pootbeam
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
161
Location
Ring Of Fire
SL Rez
2009
Joined SLU
Sep 2010
SLU Posts
1882
I did not find anything new or informative in the Hirsi Ali article as she maintains the problem isn't Israeli politics but the Palestinian religion, which to me is nonsense.

Taking a people's land, oppressing them, then blaming their religion for their response is worse than nonsense.

This excellent blog gave me much to think about on this topic.
Israel Lobby and Pro-Israel House Democrats Tried to Excommunicate Ilhan Omar, They Failed

First, of course there was the famous “Benjamins” tweet in which Omar noted that members of Congress were obedient to the Lobby because of the hundreds of millions it raises and distributes to loyal pro-Israel candidates. But somehow, noting that the Lobby derived its power from money morphed into outright anti-Semitism. The way this happened was instructive: there is, of course, an ancient anti-Semitic trope that Jews are rich and use their wealth to control the finance, banking, entertainment, and the media sectors, etc. That of course, has nothing to do with the true statement that the Lobby raises and distributes massive lucre to its favored candidates. A reasonable person can see the difference between these two concepts.
For those who need a primer in anti-Semitism, let’s talk about what it is and isn’t. It is the hatred of Jews for being Jews. It should not be confused with Israel. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel. Nothing wrong with advocating an Israel that is a democracy offering equal rights to all citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish....Ilhan Omar does not hate Jews nor hate Israel. She has never said or written any such thing. Attacking one of the most powerful domestic U.S. lobbies is not anti-Semitic. Further, supporting BDS is not anti-Semitic either.
I find this very concerning

Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic | Peter Beinart

Ilhan Omar is a powerful and brave woman who must be attacked and thwarted by all who support the old white male dominated political model. They will use anything they can and hope that if they throw everything they can at her, something will stick and discredit her.

ETA Yup, they are coming for Ilhan Omar & AOC. A long read but an educational one IMHO.

Ilhan Omar’s Criticism Raises the Question: Is Aipac Too Powerful?

“And if one were to say, ‘You know, this is a pretty complex issue; I think the Palestinians have some legitimate concerns,’ your pile of envelopes at the end of the event would be substantially smaller than the next guy’s envelopes,” he said.

So far, no organized effort to field a primary challenger against Ms. Omar has begun, although Rudy Boschwitz, a former Republican senator from Minnesota who served on Aipac’s board in the 1990s, said he had “suggested that to some people.”

In Florida, Mr. Fiske said it was time for “pro-Jewish voices to speak up” about Ms. Omar and two other Democratic freshmen who have been critical of Israel: Representatives Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York.

And he offered a prediction: “They are three people who, in my opinion, will not be around in several years.”
 
Last edited:

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
526
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
I am a little bit mixed about her. I'm very sensitive to all of the racist words we have seen and heard over the many years, shit generations, not to mention outright genocide, of the Jewish people. I think it is extremely hard to walk a fine line, refusing to use racist stereotypes, or not be seen as doing so, while condemning actions done by Israel and certain select politicians and dark money people of a country, not people, versus falling back upon those tropes. More importantly, to condemn but to be extremely careful to avoid them out of respect. She needs to be extra careful and listen to what Jewish people are saying to her.

At the same time, I do not consider it racist to lay blame upon politicians and other sycophants who attempt to use their money to alter our political system (Adelson as an example). That is just a no, it is expressly forbid by our constitution, and they deserve condemnation, along with those who take that money, with every intention of altering policy. So yes, she has a damn good point. To me, the point is more about the utter corruption of our system by money and less about it being Israeli money. If she wants me to take her seriously and have no doubt she is going to have to go after ALL cases of corruption, namely Russian first and foremost.

Edit: I need to be clear that it is corruption she is after and her zeal has no bearing upon her upbringing as a Muslim. I am not saying that she shares some of the anti-Jewish beliefs being taught, but I need proof that it isn't. I am fairly easily appeased in this regard. Her condemnation needs to spread beyond Israel and into all corruption.

Finally, these hypocritical Republicans who only care about Jewish people as far as they can use them as shields for their rapturous beliefs can go fuck themselves. These are the same people who had no issue with the hooligans (and murderer, wanna-be mass murderer; he gets no break because he only killed one person, he intended to kill many) in Charlottesville screaming, "Jews will not replace us." "Very fine people on both sides" by that criminal in the White House.

They are getting us to eat ourselves. It's a cynical and disgusting move, but hey, they're Republicans, so of course. Have we not yet learned that they will use any and everything, whether moral or not to win at all costs, to destroy their enemy (in this case, it's Democrats).

I would like her to be more cautious in her condemnations. I want her to understand and accept the history and be careful to avoid any negative stereotypes. She's my representative, I voted for her, and I'm a bit perplexed at the hate she is receiving versus her predecessor Keith Ellison (though they hated him too, just perhaps not in the same way). But then, I realize that she's a Democrat, she's Muslim, she's a female, and she is outspoken regarding corruption; she is everything they would hate and feel a burning desire to take down, much like they do AOC.
 
Last edited:

Ellie

Heretical Raccoon Skunk with a Rainbow Pootbeam
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
161
Location
Ring Of Fire
SL Rez
2009
Joined SLU
Sep 2010
SLU Posts
1882
While I'd urge all politicians to be more cautious in their use of words, to avoid offense and triggering fear in those quite rightly already afraid of the racist proportion of their country's population, let's remember this is all happening against a background of Rump and others saying whatever the hell they want (shoot people on 5th Avenue) and facing almost no censure from their parties and little in the way of consequences.

This divide and conquer tactic has worked very well for scumbag politicos in the U.S. and U.K. - we have Rump & Brexit largely because of this.

We cannot afford not to stand united against all who seek to scapegoat, silence & marginalize 'others' of any race, creed, sexual orientation and religion.
 

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
526
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
While I'd urge all politicians to be more cautious in their use of words, to avoid offense and triggering fear in those quite rightly already afraid of the racist proportion of their country's population, let's remember this is all happening against a background of Rump and others saying whatever the hell they want (shoot people on 5th Avenue) and facing almost no censure from their parties and little in the way of consequences.

This divide and conquer tactic has worked very well for scumbag politicos in the U.S. and U.K. - we have Rump & Brexit largely because of this.

We cannot afford not to stand united against all who seek to scapegoat, silence & marginalize 'others' of any race, creed, sexual orientation and religion.
Yes, we are working with a dirty dealer (and by that I mean the Republican party, in general). They have nothing, and I mean nothing, no morals that prevent them from willing to stoop down to in order to attain their goals.

At the same time, we must listen to those who have been victims of history and hate. Eh, I don't really like that phrase, but it's the best I could come up with. I loathe the idea and the practice of many in the middle that state that both sides are the same. It's their common refrain in their attempt to bring everyone down with them. No, we're not the same. We couldn't be much more different if we tried. We have different values. That is probably my biggest issue with Bernie Bros. These people supposedly believe strongly in Bernie, yet have no issue with voting for Trump. There, clearly, is something beyond what Bernie stands for that unites them.

I am just saying that I do not want to fall into the trap of lowering ourselves to some hateful things (not saying she has in any way) in order to fight the despotism. On the other hand, I am coming around strongly to the idea of dealing with treasonous traitors as we always have. I often think of how our grandfathers dealt with Nazis and it sure wasn't by giving them a hug and attempting to bring them back into the fold OR falling for their propaganda. We don't have an opposition party so much anymore so much as a propaganda and disinformation party.

But...the enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend. That is a mistake that they make. I'm not willing to be a patsy and just buy the crap they are selling, nor am I willing to sell someone down the river for not explicitly saying they aren't trying to be hurtful to others. I would like them to consider their words and act accordingly.

In this regard, I think she has gone out of her way to be explicit that she is not criticizing Jewish people as a whole, but the corruption. We'll see how it plays out. To be honest, I am a bit leery, knowing the propaganda that many muslim children grow up hearing about Jewish folks. That is why I require her to broaden her criticism.
 
Last edited:

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
270
At the same time, I do not consider it racist to lay blame upon politicians and other sycophants who attempt to use their money to alter our political system (Adelson as an example). That is just a no, it is expressly forbid by our constitution, and they deserve condemnation, along with those who take that money, with every intention of altering policy. So yes, she has a damn good point. To me, the point is more about the utter corruption of our system by money and less about it being Israeli money.
I respectfully, but strongly disagree that she was trying to talk about about dirty money in general. I think she was a little more interested in talking about the Israeli lobby in particular. Right or wrong, there is a wide spread belief that the USA enables Israel to slaughter Palestinians. I think the thoughts on dirty money were secondary to that.

Over the last few years, there have been some very productive discussions in the USA around white privilege. But I think this theory works best when you have an all powerful majority stomping a tiny minority. That's the easy case. I think white liberals (including me) are very confused about what to do when a persecuted group steps on another vulnerable group. It's a much more complex problem. I don't think you can always frame these problems in "the big picture."
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
803
I respectfully, but strongly disagree that she was trying to talk about about dirty money in general. I think she was a little more interested in talking about the Israeli lobby in particular. Right or wrong, there is a wide spread belief that the USA enables Israel to slaughter Palestinians. I think the thoughts on dirty money were secondary to that.
Why wide spread... of course the USA enable Israel to do just that - America sells shitloads of tons of weapons to Israel, what else are weapons being used for - slicing bread? But so do many other countries that as well, and that's not the point about the whole shebang.

But America is also the most important ally of Israel, and this will continue for a long time, because America and Israel have much in common. Since its founding in 1948 most neighbors were very eager to just delete Israel from the map, many tried and all so far have failed to achieve it. So most neighbors by now have learned the hard way to not go to war with Israel, because it has the strongest army in the region - period.

Where I do agree is that some pro Israel/Jewish organizations are always quick to wield the antisemitism club, to silence any kind of discussion at the very first beginning, and many people still just fell for it. There's even a whole book about this thesis, being written from Norman G. Finkelstein and named "The Holocaust Industry." Finkelstein himself is a Jew and son survivors from the Holocaust, nobody else probably could have written such a provocative book than somenone featuring this combo. And yes, there are of course lots of pro Israel lobby organizations in America, but also Arabian ones for example. The almost unlimited support for Israel runs way deeper than just money which is flowing around.

And both sides don't want to get peace. The lessons Israel learned though so far is that any time they tried to get it, they've been disappointed. Both sides are doing bad things; you cannot point just your finger at one out and neglect the other, this just simply doesn't work there that way.

The normal press coverage also is most of the time very much one sided - pro Palestine in most Western countries, which does the whole clusterfuck no justice at all.

And I do know one thing for sure: let's just say Mexico would start to behave like the Gaza strip, and shoot on a daily base Qassam rockets at American territory, to cause civilian deaths - Mexico would have been invaded by now a long time ago. But this is exactly what still happens with Israel, they are getting fired at a daily base with rockets from the Gaza strip since years, which caused many civilian deaths. The typical press coverage this will get though is that normally the press only reports the revenge action by the IDF, not really mentioning or only shortly mentioning what happened before, giving a skewed picture of what has happened. Still though too many deaths on both sides, and three year army service is mandatory for both genders in Israel.

That's the reason why Israel developed the Iron Dome defense system. Since I guess most of us do enjoy the luxury of living in save countries, we just cannot imagine really what this daily threat is doing to the people there. Since 2001 about 20.000 rockets where fired at Israel, most originating from the Gaza strip.

And getting peace there means also that other problems need to be solved as well, like the Jerusalem questions and distribution of water.

I am pretty convinced that peace is not feasable with Netanyahu and the Hamas as well. Another big problem is that so many foreign countries are meddling with the inner affairs of that conflict, that''s it not even funny, and all got different goals as well.

In the meantime Israel has learned one thing - if we want to have safety, we cannot rely on others, but must it achieve on our own. And that's exactly what they are doing, they just don't really care any longer about what the world thinks about them while they've been struggling to survive since decades. Another part of that strategy are their nuclear warheads, which existence they never confirmed or denied. Of course since 1986 Mordechai Vanunu told the world about the existence, it's been on open secret. And 2015 the Pentagon itself confirmed the existence, because Obama was deeply pissed at Netanyahu and disclosed a trove of formerly secret papers, including many details on the weapons program.

America is an important factor for Israel. I doubt though that America is able to achieve much if it would ever change their mind, because Israel is just doing what in their opinion will take it to survive, and for sure they won't wait on other countries making up their mind. If America ever pulls back, other countries maybe might be filling that vacuum, like Russia or China, and that alone is reason enough why America will never do that.

One well known critic of the Israel/American special relationship is Noah Chomsky, who has written a bunch of books on that topic; Chomsky is ocnvinced that America is a major factor why there is no peace. Often criticised though for being one sided, but the whole area is such a minefield that almost nobody can write something without getting accused of that.

I am pretty sure, that this conflict is still going to last for a long time, that our whole understanding about it is just barely superficial at best, and there's not much we can do about it. The will for peace must bear fruit in the region; people like Uri Avnery tried that for their whole life, and didn't reach their goal.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Romana

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
526
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
The normal press coverage also is most of the time very much one sided - pro Palestine in most Western countries, which does the whole clusterfuck no justice at all.
I'm going to pick this one sentence in your post. Not here, perhaps in Europe, but not here in America. It's not even close to being pro-Palestine here.
 

Ellie

Heretical Raccoon Skunk with a Rainbow Pootbeam
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
161
Location
Ring Of Fire
SL Rez
2009
Joined SLU
Sep 2010
SLU Posts
1882
There's bad actors on both sides of this conflict, but to claim they are suffering anything like equally is just not true.

Gaza is a powder keg right now as resources become increasingly scarce. Palestinians may well continue to fire off projectiles because they have little left to lose.

Conditions under Israeli Occupation.
Congress criticises Ihlan Omar’s words, but remains silent about Israel’s violence
Bil’in is under occupation and from time to time it gets worse,” he told me during an interview this week. “They confiscate lands, destroy lives. They are destroying our olive trees and our livelihood so push the people out of their homes.
Settlements,the theft of Palestinian lands.
https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2018-12-17/americans-poll-israel-one- state/
Under cover of an Oslo “consensus”, Israel has transferred ever-larger numbers of Jews into the occupied territories, thereby making a peaceful resolution of the conflict near impossible. According to the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, that is a war crime.
Death tolls on each side.
Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9/29/2000
Since the Second Intifada began on September 28, 2000, in total, at least 9,600 Palestinians and 1,251 Israelis have been killed. Source: B'Tselem
A UN OCHA report records 2,220 victims (67% of them civilians) of Israel's summer 2014 massacre in Gaza. 71 Israelis were killed during the same period (9% of them civilians).

I don't support the Palestinian firing of projectiles resulting in the deaths of innocent Israeli citizens.

Of course Israel should exist and be protected, but when you act like a murderous bully to your minorities, both Muslim and Christian, don't be surprised if they try to hit back.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
517
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
This is only the beginning. We're seeing the beginning of what the politics of young up and coming demographics look like. If the Dems can't accommodate them, it's just handing power to the minority Republicans. There's a lot more at stake than just our relationship with Israel. We need to stop pretending the Republicans represent a majority or a half of the population and have a mandate. They're using that presumed mandate to destroy our future chances at majority democracy.

This outcome would ultimately work out to be really bad for Israel. An America consumed with its own chaos might become unable to support them as it has done.
 

Ellie

Heretical Raccoon Skunk with a Rainbow Pootbeam
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
161
Location
Ring Of Fire
SL Rez
2009
Joined SLU
Sep 2010
SLU Posts
1882
Rump's antisemitic statements, use of antisemitic tropes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/us/politics/trump-omar-anti- semitism.html
During the 2016 campaign, Mr. Trump’s final television commercial featured grainy images of George Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who has become a potent symbol for anti-Semites; Janet L. Yellen, then the chairwoman of the Federal Reserve; and Lloyd C. Blankfein, then the chairman of Goldman Sachs — all of them Jewish — as Mr. Trump warned darkly about the “global special interests.” Shadowy figures, he said, “partner with these people who don’t have your good in mind.”

He famously said there had been good people on both sides of a deadly white supremacist march in Charlottesville, Va., which featured anti-Semites and racists chanting, “Jews will not replace us.”

In July 2016, Mr. Trump drew fierce criticism when his campaign released an ad about Hillary Clinton, the Democratic candidate, which depicted her superimposed on piles of cash, with a six-point Star of David and the phrase “Most Corrupt Candidate Ever!”

(Massive Pivot)


“Anti-Semitism has no place in the United States Congress,” Mr. Trump told reporters during a cabinet meeting. “Congressman Omar is terrible, what she said. And I think she should either resign from Congress or she should certainly resign from the House Foreign Affairs Committee.”
Rump, his racist scumbag supporters, etc, can say what they want but heaven help brown, black, minorities, especially women, if they even appear under cursory examination to be straying close to the line.
 

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
526
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
Rump's antisemitic statements, use of antisemitic tropes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/us/politics/trump-omar-anti- semitism.html



(Massive Pivot)




Rump, his racist scumbag supporters, etc, can say what they want but heaven help brown, black, minorities, especially women, if they even appear under cursory examination to be straying close to the line.
I would add this comment which goes back to 1991, when he delivers a twofer, though the entire article is worth the read.

Donald Trump’s long history of racism, from the 1970s to 2019

A book by John O’Donnell, former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City, quoted Trump’s criticism of a black accountant: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.” Trump at first denied the remarks, but later said in a 1997 Playboy interviewthat “the stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true.”
 
Last edited:

Ellen Cordeaux

Lurky Loo
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
83
Location
San Junipero
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
2013
SLU Posts
2357
I don't understand enough about the cultural issues surrounding Israel and the comments that Rep. Omar said to make an intelligent contribution here.

But what I DO know is; Nancy P. better get busy getting the freshman class calmed down a bit and the caucus as a whole back together and strong or we're gonna end up with another 4 years of that orange idiot. :facepalm: