If you could pick a coalition cabinet

bubblesort

Active member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
174
No, not at all. I'm not telling anyone how to vote. I'm simply trying to compare what you wrote with the outcome of the South Carolina primary election, and to apply a bit of common sense.

It seems to me there's three possible explanations for voter behaviour (assuming we discount as nonsensical the idea that some black Democrats in South Carolina also want to stop minorities going to school, so that's why they voted for him):
  • the voters were unaware that Biden wants to stop minorities from going to school;
  • they were aware of this, but thought his other qualities outweighed this negative characteristic;
  • they don't share your view
Which explanation do you favour, and why?
I apologize, that post was out of line. I was just waking up and I was a bit grumpy. I shouldn't post before I have my morning coffee.

Honestly, I think Biden won because of old people, not because of minority votes.
 

Pamela

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
1,121
Location
Austin
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2009
I apologize, that post was out of line. I was just waking up and I was a bit grumpy. I shouldn't post before I have my morning coffee.

Honestly, I think Biden won because of old people, not because of minority votes.
So not because of 2/3 of the black vote.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Brenda Archer

Pamela

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
1,121
Location
Austin
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2009
Bernie was leading Biden among black voters going into the SC primary, by 5 points. The only way Biden could do as well as he did was if young voters didn't get out to vote, but older voters did. Biden won with an old fashioned get out the vote campaign. That means Bernie supporters have to step up our game.
Well you might not have noticed but the election has changed, because now we are not just facing living in a corrupt dictatorship but the entire planet is potentially at risk of yet amother major game change. Suddenly a revolution does not sound as appealing To many as it did a couple of weeks ago. Progress sounds good enough.

Also, I initially vowed to support whoever the majority of black voters wanted. If they want Joe, they certainly deserve to have him.
 

Aribeth Zelin

Faeryfox
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
936
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
03-11-2011
SLU Posts
9410
It couldn't be they support him because he was Obama's VP or anything.... also one state with a first past the post system isn't really indicitive of desire. My sister from another mother and bestie from grade school is a Bernie supporter, and in other states, Bernie is getting a fair bit of black support.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Brenda Archer

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,161
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
Oh dear, then It really shouldn’t count, should it?
🙄. Everything counts. But the generational divide is clearly at play.
 

Pamela

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
1,121
Location
Austin
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2009
🙄. Everything counts. But the generational divide is clearly at play.
So call it generational divide instead of old people.

The point is that old people‘s vote is disqualifying. Because experience makes you stupid.
 

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,161
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
So call it generational divide instead of old people.

The point is that old people‘s vote is disqualifying. Because experience makes you stupid.
That's not the point at all. Fear is what is making people vote against their interests
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Brenda Archer

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,558
SLU Posts
18459
That's not the point at all. Fear is what is making people vote against their interests
I'm always a bit dubious of generalisations like this, not least because of the assumptions inherent in the easy phrase, "vote against their interests."

For example, I've sometimes been told that I'm going against my own interests by campaigning and voting for Labour candidates who say they'll increase particular taxes, which is certainly true, and most definitely the case that Brexit is in my personal financial interests, since I bill most of my work in US Dollars and in Euros, which meant the value of much of my earnings jumped dramatically after the £ nosedived after the referendum, and I confidently expect that trend to continue with Boris Johnson in charge.

Nevertheless, I would say that, in this case, I'm the best judge of my own interests, and that don't mind paying higher taxes or converting my earnings at a less favourable exchange rate if it means other things happen that I consider more important.

Do you not think something similar could be true of people who fail to support your preferred candidate -- their priorities are not what you think they should be, or maybe they are, but they don't trust your prefered candidate to deliver them (which was always one of my main arguments against Jeremy Corbyn's leadership)?
 

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,161
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
I'm always a bit dubious of generalisations like this, not least because of the assumptions inherent in the easy phrase, "vote against their interests."

For example, I've sometimes been told that I'm going against my own interests by campaigning and voting for Labour candidates who say they'll increase particular taxes, which is certainly true, and most definitely the case that Brexit is in my personal financial interests, since I bill most of my work in US Dollars and in Euros, which meant the value of much of my earnings jumped dramatically after the £ nosedived after the referendum, and I confidently expect that trend to continue with Boris Johnson in charge.

Nevertheless, I would say that, in this case, I'm the best judge of my own interests, and that don't mind paying higher taxes or converting my earnings at a less favourable exchange rate if it means other things happen that I consider more important.

Do you not think something similar could be true of people who fail to support your preferred candidate -- their priorities are not what you think they should be, or maybe they are, but they don't trust your prefered candidate to deliver them (which was always one of my main arguments against Jeremy Corbyn's leadership)?
All Biden offers is not-Trump. He has been trying to cut Social Security for 40 years, and this group of people is demonstrably dependent upon this program. That's an objective fact. The most he will do is to reverse some of the bad executive orders. But I am fairly assured that he will "work with Republicans" to all our detriment on Social Security and other matters, especially when it comes to war. Endless war, performative concern for the climate. Anyone who cares about the climate should choose someone who actually cares about the issue, but no.
 
  • 1Thanks
  • 1Eye Roll
Reactions: Brenda Archer and Pamela

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,558
SLU Posts
18459
All Biden offers is not-Trump. He has been trying to cut Social Security for 40 years, and this group of people is demonstrably dependent upon this program. That's an objective fact. The most he will do is to reverse some of the bad executive orders. But I am fairly assured that he will "work with Republicans" to all our detriment on Social Security and other matters, especially when it comes to war. Endless war, performative concern for the climate. Anyone who cares about the climate should choose someone who actually cares about the issue, but no.
So do you think Democratic voters in South Carolina aren't bothered about Social Security and the climate, or that there's some other policy Biden favours that they think outweighs this, or that they've been misinformed about Biden's policies and records, or what?

People who voted for Biden presumably considered the various candidates and their policies, after all, and each voter reached what she or he thought was a reasonable decision about the best choice.

Simply dismissing the views of your own voters because they don't like your candidate and his policies is really dangerous, as the Labour Party discovered rather dramatically last December. Maybe you didn't get the message across to them, or maybe you did, and they didn't like it, but you have to ask yourselves why it went wrong, I think.
 
  • 1Thanks
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Brenda Archer and Pamela

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,161
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
So do you think Democratic voters in South Carolina aren't bothered about Social Security and the climate, or that there's some other policy Biden favours that they think outweighs this, or that they've been misinformed about Biden's policies and records, or what?

People who voted for Biden presumably considered the various candidates and their policies, after all, and each voter reached what she or he thought was a reasonable decision about the best choice.

Simply dismissing the views of your own voters because they don't like your candidate and his policies is really dangerous, as the Labour Party discovered rather dramatically last December. Maybe you didn't get the message across to them, or maybe you did, and they didn't like it, but you have to ask yourselves why it went wrong, I think.
Average voters are not as ideological as some of us are, as demonstrated here. People support candidates for a variety of reasons and policies clearly are not the only reason.

And that whole thing about dismissing people? That's been going on against Bernie and his supporters for years.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,558
SLU Posts
18459
Average voters are not as ideological as some of us are, as demonstrated here. People support candidates for a variety of reasons and policies clearly are not the only reason.

And that whole thing about dismissing people? That's been going on against Bernie and his supporters for years.
So what lessons are Bernie and his supporters drawing from this setback in South Carolina? What should they have done in order better to persuade people to vote for him rather than for Biden?

And I have to say I think the statement "Fear is what is making people vote against their interests" is pretty dismissive of the people who voted for Biden -- if they hadn't been too frighted (presumably, you would say they had no good reason to be) to think sensibly, they'd have seen what their best interests were, since you and Bernie Sanders clearly have no difficulty identifying the best interests of those voters.
 
  • 1Thanks
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Brenda Archer and Pamela

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,161
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
So call it generational divide instead of old people.

The point is that old people‘s vote is disqualifying. Because experience makes you stupid.
You're the one making this point and putting words in people's mouth. Their votes are important, but in a state with 70% over 45, it's not necessarily representative of the country as a whole and the latest national polling before this weekend would say so. When other black people in other states have their say, what are you going to say then?