House Formally Launches Impeachment Inquiry

Zaida Gearbox

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
676
Democrats are in a bad place, and it's not by their doing. They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Obviously, choosing to impeach with a GOP-led Senate is not going to end well, and will make Trump think he's been exonerated, and make the Democrats look bad. However, had they have chosen not to impeach, it would have shown the world that the president is above the law, and would have further emboldened Trump to do whatever he wants. So there's really no way to win here. This is the Constitutional crisis Trump, McConnell, and the GOP at large have created.
They could have chosen to censure him - which wouldn't have to go to the Senate.
 

Veritable Quandry

Specializing in derails and train wrecks.
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
1,855
Location
Columbus, OH
SL Rez
2010
Joined SLU
20something
SLU Posts
42
They could have chosen to censure him - which wouldn't have to go to the Senate.
Which would still pass on party lines while undercutting the seriousness of the charges without gaining any bipartisan support. If the Republicans won't compromise with us, why should we compromise with ourselves?
 
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
2,347
Location
Portland, OR
SL Rez
2003
SLU Posts
4494
This CNN video says there are two main choices the senate could make on how to respond to impeachment. They could vote to dismiss the charges. But that would look bad to their constituents. So McConnell will hold a short trial and get it over with. Sorry for the loose paraphrasing.

 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Brenda Archer

Zaida Gearbox

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
676
A couple of reasons. Impeachment is equivalent to the indictment stage of a criminal case. That's what you issue when you have sufficient evidence a crime/impeachable offense has been committed. The criminal justice system doesn't stop working just because they might lose a case, and neither should impeachment. It will serve to motivate Democrats in 2020.

Next, it gets Republicans on the record of voting to protect Trump. This will be useful in the coming election year, *especially* if more dirt comes out about Trump. Note that more dirt is expected. Lev Parnas has flipped and provided evidence, and there are lots of court cases underway to obtain tax returns, documents and Trump lackey testimony. Some of that is bound to be bad.

Lastly, it puts a permanent stain on Trump's record.
Are you on crack??? Prosecutors decline to indict/prosecute all the fucking time when they don't think they can win the case. It seriously hurts a prosecutor's record when they lose cases. Plus there's this little thing called double jeopardy -which means you can't indict/prosecute the person on the same charges later if more evidence of their guilt comes up. So, prosecutors generally don't go forward with an indictment unless they think they have a good chance of winning. Anyone who has watched Law & Order knows that - never mind someone with even a passing knowledge of the criminal justice system.
 

danielravennest

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,209
SLU Posts
9073
Note that more dirt is expected. Lev Parnas has flipped and provided evidence, and there are lots of court cases underway to obtain tax returns, documents and Trump lackey testimony. Some of that is bound to be bad.
Replying to myself, but this passed my news feed today:

Lev Parnas was paid $1 Million by Russians while working for Trump's Election

Rudy Giuliani’s associate Lev Parnas got $1 million from an account in Russia in September, a month before he was charged with conspiring to funnel foreign money into U.S. political campaigns, according to U.S. prosecutors who asked a judge to jail him for understating his income and assets.

“The majority of that money appears to have been used on personal expenses and to purchase a home,” prosecutors said in a court filing Wednesday. Parnas failed to disclose the payment to the government, prosecutors said.

The payment raises provocative new questions about the nature of the work Parnas and his associate Igor Fruman were doing and who they were doing it for. Much about what they did remains unclear.
 

Soen Eber

Vatican mole
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
822
It doesn't really matter anyways. Trump is too untrustworthy and self-dealing - the moment he is no longer useful he will be disappeared by his Russian handlers, or die of "heart failure".

Good riddance.
 

danielravennest

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,209
SLU Posts
9073
Are you on crack??? Prosecutors decline to indict/prosecute all the fucking time when they don't think they can win the case.
You misunderstood what I said. Even when they bring a case, sometimes they lose in court. There is always a chance of that. Conversely, there's a chance the Senate might convict, if sufficiently bad evidence surfaces.

Also, in our system, prosecutors don't indict. That's the job of the grand jury, which is made up of citizens, like the trial jury is. What a prosecutor can do is decline to bring a case before the grand jury. Once they do, it is out of their hands, the grand jury can investigate on their own initiative and decide if there is enough evidence of a crime to issue an indictment.

In the case of Trump's tax returns, its the grand jury that wants to see them, and issued a subpoena to get it from his tax preparer. Trump's lawyers of course went to court to prevent it, and we are still waiting.
 

Zaida Gearbox

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
676
You misunderstood what I said. Even when they bring a case, sometimes they lose in court. There is always a chance of that. Conversely, there's a chance the Senate might convict, if sufficiently bad evidence surfaces.

Also, in our system, prosecutors don't indict. That's the job of the grand jury, which is made up of citizens, like the trial jury is. What a prosecutor can do is decline to bring a case before the grand jury. Once they do, it is out of their hands, the grand jury can investigate on their own initiative and decide if there is enough evidence of a crime to issue an indictment.

In the case of Trump's tax returns, its the grand jury that wants to see them, and issued a subpoena to get it from his tax preparer. Trump's lawyers of course went to court to prevent it, and we are still waiting.
The prosecutor decides which cases to present to the grand jury - and there is also such an animal called "direct indictment" which bypasses the grand jury. There is also such a critter as a bench trial where the accused agrees to let the judge decide instead of having a jury. I still say the dems should have waited - or simply censured him - for something so egregious that even the Rethuglicans could not ignore it. I don't ike it but this is not going to get past the Senate - they won't be able to impeach him again for these offences - and he will have an even greater sense that he is beyond the reach of law than he already does.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
The prosecutor decides which cases to present to the grand jury - and there is also such an animal called "direct indictment" which bypasses the grand jury. There is also such a critter as a bench trial where the accused agrees to let the judge decide instead of having a jury. I still say the dems should have waited - or simply censured him - for something so egregious that even the Rethuglicans could not ignore it. I don't ike it but this is not going to get past the Senate - they won't be able to impeach him again for these offences - and he will have an even greater sense that he is beyond the reach of law than he already does.
Trump is so far gone mentally he won’t be able to hold out in a debate even against Sleepy Biden. It’s possible he will be propped up, in a metaphorical sense, not unlike a puppet. But “Trump” is not one man, it’s more a system of corruption of which he’s just the figurehead. What I’m trying to say is, it doesn’t matter much what Trump thinks. The same corrupt, Dominionist machine will roll along with or without him. *All of it* needs to be voted out (or sent to jail, when appropriate).

Trump doesn’t have the skills or mind to be the leader the press portrays. There are a lot of people acting behind the scenes to create this illusion.
 

Aribeth Zelin

Faeryfox
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
1,734
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
03-11-2011
SLU Posts
9410
Trump is so far gone mentally he won’t be able to hold out in a debate even against Sleepy Biden. It’s possible he will be propped up, in a metaphorical sense, not unlike a puppet. But “Trump” is not one man, it’s more a system of corruption of which he’s just the figurehead. What I’m trying to say is, it doesn’t matter much what Trump thinks. The same corrupt, Dominionist machine will roll along with or without him. *All of it* needs to be voted out (or sent to jail, when appropriate).

Trump doesn’t have the skills or mind to be the leader the press portrays. There are a lot of people acting behind the scenes to create this illusion.
The one comfort is that he's also a petty manchild who will happily throw people under the bus, in an attempt to stay out from under the wheels.
 

Rose Karuna

Old and Cranky Xherdan
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,002
Location
Central Florida
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
2007
What worries me is that most people I speak with don't seem to understand the seriousness of the articles of impeachment that have been brought against him. Even democrats I know seem to be struggling with it. The articles brought against him look political to the average person. People understand "Obstruction of Justice and Bribery", they don't necessarily understand "Obstruction of Congress and Abuse of Power, either of which the general public actually views as a crime.
 

Kara Spengler

Queer OccupyE9 Sluni-Goon
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
5,847
Location
SL: November RL: DC
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
December, 2008
SLU Posts
23289
The one comfort is that he's also a petty manchild who will happily throw people under the bus, in an attempt to stay out from under the wheels.
Exactly. In a normal presidency i would be worrying who will get the office in an impeachment. With donnie though he will wind up implicating everyone to try and keep away from the impeachment train.
 

Pamela

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
1,364
Location
Austin
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2009
c

Trump doesn’t have the skills or mind to be the leader the press portrays. There are a lot of people acting behind the scenes to create this illusion.
Its Putin, whose wealth depends on his country’s primary if not sole economic basis, oil. Sanctions prevent Putin, the mob boss, from exploiting this economic base. That’s why the “wink wink” denial of responsibility for interfering in our elections — he wants Dems to know it’s him, but he wants Reps to lift sanctions because it isn’t him.

Trump is just a dumbass capo who take orders as well as anyone with a low IQ could. But he is certainly not calling the shots, that’s all Putin.
 

danielravennest

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,209
SLU Posts
9073
And yet more Parnas, Fruman, and Giuliani dirt:

Prosecutors Investigating Attempted Bribery of Ukrainan Gas Company Officials

Federal prosecutors investigating associates of Rudy Giuliani have focused on a Ukrainian state-owned natural gas company, a move that suggests authorities are exploring whether a law prohibiting the payment of bribes to foreign officials has been violated.

The fresh line of inquiry has accelerated in recent weeks. New York federal prosecutors have interviewed two senior executives at Naftogaz, the Ukrainian state-run energy company, and requested interviews with at least two others who are believed to have some knowledge of the alleged scheme by Giuliani's associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman to replace Naftogaz's chief executive in hopes of bettering their business prospects.

The questions connected to Naftogaz suggest prosecutors -- who have been investigating Parnas, Fruman and Giuliani as part of a broad inquiry that includes potential foreign lobbying violations -- are also looking at whether yet another law was violated, legal experts say. The law, called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, prohibits a US company or individual from giving any payment, offer of payment or anything of value to a foreign official in order to obtain or retain business.
So what was that about Hunter Biden doing something wrong? 🍿
 

Kara Spengler

Queer OccupyE9 Sluni-Goon
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
5,847
Location
SL: November RL: DC
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
December, 2008
SLU Posts
23289

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
Its Putin, whose wealth depends on his country’s primary if not sole economic basis, oil. Sanctions prevent Putin, the mob boss, from exploiting this economic base. That’s why the “wink wink” denial of responsibility for interfering in our elections — he wants Dems to know it’s him, but he wants Reps to lift sanctions because it isn’t him.

Trump is just a dumbass capo who take orders as well as anyone with a low IQ could. But he is certainly not calling the shots, that’s all Putin.
Putin too, certainly. Our oil industry and his have converging interests.