Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

Innula Zenovka

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Is Israeli leadership genuinely oblivious to how badly they are fucking up public relations with most of the world or are they playing some game? I know it feels powerful to act like you don't care what other people think, but in reality public perception does matter...
Netanyahu is, I think, primarily interested in his personal political survival -- like Trump, he has criminal charges to worry about once he leaves power (and the Israeli Supreme Court isn't as subservient as is the US one). So his considerations are primarily domestic.

To this he probably adds the calculation that, whatever public opinion abroad might make of it, the US is not going to ditch one of its most important regional allies (along with Saudi) in the coalition that keeps Iran contained.

He doubtless also has in mind that both Hamas and Iran want to liquidate Israel as a nation and that "public perception" has not, in the past several millennia, been much of a protection for Jews when they're confronted by people who want to wipe them out.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Hard to believe it's been a year. Every day, we wake up to the same news. Bleak, ceaseless horror, without remission or improvement. And every day it feels a little more normal, a little less noticeable. And that, of course, is when the true despair overtakes you. When that which is unspeakable begins to seem unremarkable, simply through repetition.

Nearly a year now since October 7th, when terrorists killed 1,195 Israelis and foreign nationals. Nearly a year now since Israel's response, which has killed over 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza and over a thousand in Lebanon.

This is not about the political or the military response. There are plenty of pieces about that. It is about the dual form of racism that the war has set free and the manner in which they have galloped around the earth, poisoning everything they touch. It’s about how we learn to hate.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Is Israeli leadership genuinely oblivious to how badly they are fucking up public relations with most of the world or are they playing some game? I know it feels powerful to act like you don't care what other people think, but in reality public perception does matter...
You've got to understand that Israel cares not about the UN at all. For them the UN is just all blah blah no substance. Aside that they do consider the UN as biased, because there are 57 muslimic states in the world but only one Jewish, so don't expect to get treated fairly. Also the fact that the UNRWA is a thing really disturbs them a lot as well and doesn't help either.

The only country Israel rely on up to a certain degree are the USA, and if some politicians there are not walking that line the AIPAC will do its thing.

And by the way that's the stance of most Israelis not since one year, but decades now. By the way Gueterres now officially condemned the attacks.
 
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You've got to understand that Israel cares not about the UN at all. For them the UN is just all blah blah no substance. Aside that they do consider the UN as biased, because there are 57 muslimic states in the world but only one Jewish, so don't expect to get treated fairly. Also the fact that the UNRWA is a thing really disturbs them a lot as well and doesn't help either.

The only country Israel rely on up to a certain degree are the USA, and if some politicians there are not walking that line the AIPAC will do its thing.

And by the way that's the stance of most Israelis not since one year, but decades now. By the way Gueterres now officially condemned the attacks.
I get that, but my comment was more general than just the UN. A lot of people on the USA are turning against them as well and their continued support from us is at risk. It would be to their own benefit to get a better at public relations.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I get that, but my comment was more general than just the UN. A lot of people on the USA are turning against them as well and their continued support from us is at risk. It would be to their own benefit to get a better at public relations.
What practical consequences do you think are likely to follow for Israel as a result of "a lot of people" in the USA "turning against them"?

How, for example, might "a lot of people" in the US turning against Israel affect the outcome of the forthcoming elections one way or another, and what might be the adverse consequences for Israel as a result?
 

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What practical consequences do you think are likely to follow for Israel as a result of "a lot of people" in the USA "turning against them"?

How, for example, might "a lot of people" in the US turning against Israel affect the outcome of the forthcoming elections one way or another, and what might be the adverse consequences for Israel as a result?
the answer to both questions is I don't know.... but I certainly think that future military aid would be more secure if they handled public relations better. Even if it's likely that nothing becomes of it either way. If Kamala wins, there will be a lot of pressure to at least not be so generous with aid. If the leftists refuse to vote for her instead get Trump elected, then obviously it might Benefit Israel with more aggressive aid. That could be what they are trying to do, but I think the outcome of them losing so much public support is harder to predict than if they were maintaining public support better.
 

Innula Zenovka

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the answer to both questions is I don't know.... but I certainly think that future military aid would be more secure if they handled public relations better. Even if it's likely that nothing becomes of it either way. If Kamala wins, there will be a lot of pressure to at least not be so generous with aid. If the leftists refuse to vote for her instead get Trump elected, then obviously it might Benefit Israel with more aggressive aid. That could be what they are trying to do, but I think the outcome of them losing so much public support is harder to predict than if they were maintaining public support better.
One of the many dilemmas faced by the US, as I see it, is that if the worst comes to the worst, then either Israel uses its nuclear deterrent against Iran or Hamas/Hezbollah/some other Islamist faction backed by Tehran, get their hands on Israel's nukes.

The US can't afford to allow either of those outcomes, which doesn't leave it with a great deal of choice other than to provide sufficient support to Israel, no matter how much it might dislike any particular Israeli government, to make sure things never get that far.
 
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One of the many dilemmas faced by the US, as I see it, is that if the worst comes to the worst, then either Israel uses its nuclear deterrent against Iran or Hamas/Hezbollah/some other Islamist faction backed by Tehran, get their hands on Israel's nukes.

The US can't afford to allow either of those outcomes, which doesn't leave it with a great deal of choice other than to provide sufficient support to Israel, no matter how much it might like any particular Israeli government, to make sure things never get that far.
I agree with you. I'm just saying it certainly wouldn't hurt if Israel also did better PR work on this disaster...
 

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The thing is that the USA probably will stay with Israel till the very end, regardless what Israel is doing. Why? Iran! While Turkey is in NATO it will for sure not do anything against Iran. Nor will KSA do.

So Israel is the only ally in that region who would support US actions against Iran, if something happens.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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In the year since 7 October 2023, much has changed in the world of antisemitism, anti-Zionism, and the blurry zone of ideas and feelings where the two meet and interact. We can count the hate crimes and look in horror at the shameless return of medieval anti-Jewish tropes, but perhaps more significant is the shift in the language of the anti-Israel movement from occupation to colonialism, and the associated change in its focus from reversing Israel’s conquests in 1967 to erasing its foundation in 1948.

This has brought with it a radicalisation of intent, from campaigning to remove the Israeli presence from the West Bank and Gaza to calling for it to be removed from the Middle East entirely. Most troubling of all, it is accompanied by a hostile attempt to rewrite of Jewish history.
The change is audible in the chants: “We don’t want two states, we want 1948” is the most explicit, putting this movement at odds with the settled position of the UK government, the international community, and the United Nations. It’s visible in the academics’ letters that were penned as soon as Hamas smashed though Israel’s border fence on that terrible October morning. It is implied in every social media post that rails against 76 years of settler colonialism, rather than 57 years of occupation. And it is tangible as the emotional driving force of this movement, which is in no mood for compromise.

Indeed, is difficult to find any prominent pro-Palestinian activist in the mainstream of this movement who is still campaigning *only* against the occupation of 1967. When people do talk about this it seems almost quaint; like a politics of a bygone age, as far from the cutting edge of pro-Palestinian activism as it is possible to be
 

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There were Pro Palestine rallies in Berlin, which partially turned violent in burning stuff and throwing stones. Most famous participant: Greta Thunberg!

 

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Author of The Hundred Years War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonial Conquest and Resistance, who very recently "received alarming news: a gang of extremist Israeli settlers had stormed a house on Silsila Road in Jerusalem, a property that had been in his family’s possession since the time of his great-great-great grandfather in the 18th century."

The opening of the book describes a prescient letter written by his great-great-great uncle, Yusuf Diya al-Din Pasha al-Khalidi, to Theodor Herzl, the founder of the modern Zionist movement, in 1899. Yusuf Diya argues in the letter that the fulfillment of the Zionist project would entail the dispossession of the Palestinian people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2024/oct/08/rashid-khalidi-palestine-israel-scholar-columbia-university-retires
 

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A Fox News journalist is making this argument. How long will he remain a Fox News journalist?
 

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A Fox News journalist is making this argument. How long will he remain a Fox News journalist?
Good question... on one hand, it's Fox and they hate Palestinians, but on the other hand Journalists of all kinds are often VERY sympathetic to other journalists.

That said... we know being too sensible and unbias has gotten others the boot from Fox on a few occasions. I think to leadership their overall narrative is more important.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Haaretz' Anshel Pfeffer is analysing while despite now being 1 full year into war the West has not really put enough pressure on Israel to stop the war, like it did in the past.

Reasons are in his opinion:
  • the special relationship Joe Biden has with Israel.
  • it is election in the USA right now, and even Arab countries with which Israel has already diplomatic relationships haven't threatened to cut these off. So why should the West then while most Arabs are just paying lip service in public while hoping in private that Israel finishes off Hamas?
  • Israel is a crucial ally for the USA, providing military technology and experience while confronting Iran. So the West needs Israel as an ally, and that is the real limit on any pressure. It's a "soul sibling" to the West. Furthermore when even Trump understands what Israel brings to the table, they know they can't afford to give up on a small country that knows how to build advanced military might with few resources.
It's that image of advanced and efficient Israel plus being important key ally in the region that keeped the window open in Gaza for the past year.

 
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My friend was sending me screen shots of facebook Yom Kippur celebrations being trolled by people telling them they are going to hell. A lot of these "protesters" honestly can't tell the difference between protesting Israel and Jewish people in general.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Haaretz' Anshel Pfeffer is analysing while despite now being 1 full year into war the West has not really put enough pressure on Israel to stop the war, like it did in the past.

Reasons are in his opinion:
  • the special relationship Joe Biden has with Israel.
  • it is election in the USA right now, and even Arab countries with which Israel has already diplomatic relationships haven't threatened to cut these off. So why should the West then while most Arabs are just paying lip service in public while hoping in private that Israel finishes off Hamas?
  • Israel is a crucial ally for the USA, providing military technology and experience while confronting Iran. So the West needs Israel as an ally, and that is the real limit on any pressure. It's a "soul sibling" to the West. Furthermore when even Trump understands what Israel brings to the table, they know they can't afford to give up on a small country that knows how to build advanced military might with few resources.
It's that image of advanced and efficient Israel plus being important key ally in the region that keeped the window open in Gaza for the past year.

To this I'd add that Israel has nukes, which the US doesn't want to see used or to see fall into the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Iranian proxy.