Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

[Aeon Jiminy]

Israel has given us a gift that will last a lifetime.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

After the very recent UN release of its first investigation into October 7 and ongoing Gaza genocide by Israel, accusations of atrocities, including that Hamas conducted SA and mass SA during that raid, have resurfaced. Biden repeated it, and claimed to have seen photographic evidence, later walked back by his gov.

It is important to dig very deep into this accusation, as it provided the Israeli gov. with 'justification' to raze Gaza and a huge global media boost.

Mainstream UK media, The Times of London, published an in-depth report on this topic, stating,

"Critics argue that Israeli officials have regularly wielded the rape claim as a cudgel to silence critics of their assault on Gaza."

"In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found."

The Israeli gov. has been unable to produce any evidence of its October 7 Hamas SA accusation, despite repeating it endlessly, and it featuring hugely in media reporting and attempts to justify the annihilation of Gaza and all its inhabitants.

If I were a Hamas operative, the last thing on my mind during such an operation, considering massive IDF forces could arrive at any minute, would be SA of the enemy.

Sources: (Trigger Warning)

Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?

https://archive.is/BFEL6

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-war-crimes-isreal-hamas-gaza-12jun24/

https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1800826844293501110

I know racist violence is often fueled by fears that foreign men will ravage our women. ...but I feel like there are some parallels between the kind of thinking here and what mens rights trolls always say about SA victims. The fact is that SA doesn't often leave a very clear trail of forensic evidence that isn't easy to clean away. Real SA cases in the civilian world often have "no evidence." It's the norm and not the exception and it doesn't mean the victims are lying.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Another important opinion in Haaretz by Ehud Barak, former prime minister of Israel as well General of their army:

Israel Must Oust Its Failed Government Before It Sinks Into the Moral Abyss

This is a genuine emergency. The crux of our disaster is that in the midst of a catastrophe, Israel is being led by a government and a prime minister who are patently unfit for office

Israel is at the height of a developing crisis that is far from being over. It's the most serious and dangerous crisis in the country's history. It began on October 7 with the worst failure in Israel's history. And it continued with a war that, despite the courage and sacrifice of soldiers and officers, appears to be the least successful war in its history, due to the strategic paralysis in the country's leadership.

We are now facing difficult decisions between terrible alternatives with regard to continuing the fighting in the Gaza Strip, expanding the operation against Hezbollah in the north and risking a multifront war that would include Iran and its proxies. And all this is happening while in the background the judicial coup continues, with its goal of establishing a racist, ultranationalist, messianic and benighted religious dictatorship.

The crisis requires us to mobilize everything that's strong, good and effective within us to return to the path of growth, empowerment, enlightenment and hope that Israel trod during most of its history. That would be a real victory.

At this point in time, we can't afford any more mistakes. We need to look directly and courageously at what happened to us and why, and then we need the determination to fix it quickly, despite the opposition that doing so will generate. This will require decisiveness, courage and action – from members of the opposition, from members of the governing coalition with spines and also from us, the entire citizenry.

This is a genuine emergency! The crux of our disaster is that in the midst of a catastrophe, Israel is being led by a government and a prime minister who are patently unfit for their offices.

The people responsible for what happened on October 7 and for running the failed war in Gaza aren't fit to lead Israel into a new era whose risks will be much greater. A captain who has already sunk two ships, one after the other, cannot be entrusted with the helm of the third and last ship.

We need to immediately replace this failed government by setting an agreed date for elections, or, alternatively, by holding a constructive no-confidence vote. And this must be done during the current Knesset session – that is, in the next five weeks.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-06-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-must-oust-its-failed-government-before-it-sinks-into-the-moral-abyss/00000190-1285-d621-abfa-5bb5e9840000

 

[Innula Zenovka]

After the very recent UN release of its first investigation into October 7 and ongoing Gaza genocide by Israel, accusations of atrocities, including that Hamas conducted SA and mass SA during that raid, have resurfaced. Biden repeated it, and claimed to have seen photographic evidence, later walked back by his gov.

It is important to dig very deep into this accusation, as it provided the Israeli gov. with 'justification' to raze Gaza and a huge global media boost.

Mainstream UK media, The Times of London, published an in-depth report on this topic, stating,

"Critics argue that Israeli officials have regularly wielded the rape claim as a cudgel to silence critics of their assault on Gaza."

"In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found."

The Israeli gov. has been unable to produce any evidence of its October 7 Hamas SA accusation, despite repeating it endlessly, and it featuring hugely in media reporting and attempts to justify the annihilation of Gaza and all its inhabitants.

If I were a Hamas operative, the last thing on my mind during such an operation, considering massive IDF forces could arrive at any minute, would be SA of the enemy.

Sources: (Trigger Warning)

Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?

https://archive.is/BFEL6

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-war-crimes-isreal-hamas-gaza-12jun24/

https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1800826844293501110

You might want to read the UN report for yourself and see what you make of their conclusions, based their analysis of the evidence. In particular

Spoiler: Detailed accounts of evidence sexual violence

58. Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles.

Or

60. There are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred on and around Road 232. Credible information based on corroborating witness accounts describes an incident involving the rape of two women. The mission team received other accounts of rape, including gang rape, which could not be verified during the time provided and would require further investigation. Along this road, several bodies were found with genital injuries, along with injuries to other body parts. Discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified at this time but warrant future investigation. Many bodies along Road 232 also suffered destructive burn damage and conclusions as to conflict-related sexual violence (including genital mutilation) related to these incidents could not be drawn. The mission team was also able to ascertain that multiple bodies of women and a few men were found totally or partially naked or with their clothes torn, including some bound and/or attached to structures, which – though circumstantial – may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence.

61. Nova music festival goers also attempted to escape to the south and sought shelter in and around kibbutz Re’im, about 2 km southwest of the Nova music festival site. There are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred in kibbutz Re’im, including rape. This included the rape of a woman outside of a bomb shelter at the entrance of kibbutz Re’im, which was corroborated by witness testimonies and digital material. Within the kibbutz itself, in one area close to the entrance, the bodies of at least two women were found inside a home, on the floor and naked, with gunshot wounds to their heads. Witness testimony gathered for this area is consistent with possible sexual violence, however, these could not be verified in the time provided and would require further investigation.

Or

71. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing. 72. Based on first-hand accounts of released hostages there are reasonable grounds to believe that female hostages were also subjected to other forms of sexual violence.

The report concludes

84. Overall, based on the totality of information gathered from multiple and independent sources at the different locations, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information, which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered.

85. With regards to the hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some hostages taken to Gaza have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.

86. The mission team was unable to establish the prevalence of sexual violence and concludes that the overall magnitude, scope, and specific attribution of these violations would require a fully-fledged investigation. A comprehensive investigation would enable the information base to be expanded in locations which the mission team was not able to visit and to build the required trust with survivors/victims of conflict-related sexual violence who may be reluctant to come forward at this point.

The report also considers the situation on the West Bank and concludes

87. Regarding the occupied Palestinian Territory, while its scope did not extend to verification, the mission team received information from institutional and civil society sources as well as through direct interviews, about some forms of sexual violence against Palestinian men and women in detention settings, during house raids and at checkpoints. Though the mission team did not visit Gaza, the Office of the SRSG-SVC will continue to monitor the situation for any relevant allegations of CRSV in the context of the ongoing hostilities. The relevant UN entities present in the occupied Palestinian Territory will provide UN-verified information for reporting to the Security Council on allegations of CRSV, which will be complemented by the information obtained by the mission team.

Would you consider that finding unreliable? It seems difficult to accept one set of conclusions while rejecting the other.

ETA: I now realise I was quoting from an earlier UN report, issued back in March.

The one released the other day covers similar ground, relying on evidence discussed in the March report, and adds more recent analysis and reports. It comes to very similar conclusions.

Having read both documents, at least in part, I find it very difficult to dismiss their conclusion that the Hamas attackers were certainly responsible for a considerable amount of sexual violence, quite apart from wholesale murder and kidnapping.

 

[Aeon Jiminy]

When your world view begins to disintegrate.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The lauding of the marginal ultra-Orthodox sect Neturei Karta (NK) by some leftists is an expression of the same phenomenon. [...] NK provide those keen to deny or downplay left antisemitism with a seemingly authentic expression of Jewishness, which proclaims itself as such, that they can point to in their defence. NK refer to themselves as ‘Torah true Jews’, and use slogans such as ‘Authentic Judaism opposes Zionist aggression’.

As the Israeli academic Eldad Levy, writing in the radical Israeli/ Palestinian +972 Magazine, put it, ‘the fact that a rigorous Jewish sect officially denounces the existence of Israel and joins efforts with the Palestinian national struggle has a symbolic political gain. The use of Neturei Karta as “Jews opposing Israel” is heavily tokenised to achieve a political goal.’ When not attending pro-Palestine protests, NK members have participated in Holocaust denial conferences hosted by the Iranian state, mobilised in London to support the leader of the Hungarian fascist group Jobbik (which NK admires for its anti-Zionism) and have been photographed performing the quenelle, the inverted Nazi salute popular amongst antisemites in France. In 1991 an NK rabbi sat down for a convivial, sympathetic interview with Patrick Harrington, a far-right political activist and sometime member of the National Front.

As Spencer Sunshine rightly put it, NK is ‘the Jewish equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church’.19 But for some of the left-wing arbiters of authentic Jewishness, none of this is enough to put NK off limits. Sunshine points out:

The left would never hold up the 8% of Black voters who supported Trump as representing the Black community. In fact, when Trumpists put Black supporters front and centre, the left understands their opinions are not those of the majority of Black Americans. So, since the Jewish community as a whole appears to not want Israel to be abolished, why does the left hold up the tiny minority of anti-Zionist Jews as representative of the Jewish community? They are being used as tokens by the larger left that refuses to engage in Jewish issues or to confront antisemitism.20

Randall, Daniel. Confronting Antisemitism on the Left: Arguments for Socialists (pp. 169-170). No Pasaran Media. Kindle Edition.

 

[Ellie]

I will never encourage refusal to believe SA victims; they must always be given support and their claims accepted, absent any compelling evidence to the contrary such as overwhelming proof the perp was in another country entirely at the time of the offense.

Accusations made by govs and other groups with political agendas, however, are absolutely up for debate and investigation.

Especially govs, etc, which recently and/or continually propagate debunked & scurrilous lies such as multiple beheaded babies.

Especially if these mass SA accusations are the reason many support a Gazan genocide.

I'm wading through horrific detailed evidence to formulate a more detailed reply, constrained by work deadlines all this month.

I’m also well aware a recent and official US gov report to determine if there is a genocide in Gaza may well have been massively misdirected to ensure arms supplies to Israeli gov. may legally continue. Even official reports now must be questioned, it appears.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/30/two-more-us-officials-resign-over-biden-administrations-position-on-gaza-war

Another topic to explore, if anyone cares to look deeper than Israeli gov talking points echoed endlessly by corporate media and even some august bodies and heads of state, is Zaka.

These volunteers, who retrieved bodies on Oct 7, lacking suitable forensic training and focusing on ensuring the observation of the death rituals of those of the Jewish faith (speedy burial, etc), were sent in despite the IDF unit specifically trained to do this work being deployed, standing ready, and begging to be allowed to go in.

Zaka's claims must be thoroughly investigated, as must be the entire institution, and claims of repeated SA & financial shenanigans by the founder, as well as member use of photos of the dead to elicit donations, now in the millions of dollars.

I hope this will be part of UN deliberations and Zaka member testimony will not accepted without question, as many of their accounts have already been debunked, including by the Israeli press.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/zaka-may-have-cost-israel-its-case-against-hamas-at-the-world-could/0000018d-7a17-d9fb-a9fd-fe9f16e90000

Or https://archive.is/XD7Xj

Last week Haaretz published an investigation disclosing faults in the work of Zaka, a Haredi rescue organization best known for retrieving body parts after terror attacks (Aaron Rabinowitz, Jan. 31). The expose found that in the chaos of the first days after the October 7 massacre, the Israel Defense Forces assigned some of the work of collecting bodies and other evidence to Zaka, whose volunteers took advantage of their presence on the scene to film PR videos and to raise funds. Their work was often sloppy and, according to a member of the Military Rabbinate who is also a Zaka volunteer, "We arrived at the scene at the beginning of the war, and there was not a body or find in the field that we did not properly document. ... Zaka barely wrote anything on the bags, and you can forget about any documentation." This negligence may have cost Israel in its legal case against Hamas, and left many body parts still unidentified.

American Media Keep Citing Zaka — Though Its October 7 Atrocity Stories Are Discredited in Israel

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Especially if these mass SA accusations are the reason many support a Gazan genocide.

Bullshit; the reason why many people are so pissed about Gaza strip is the terror coming from it in form of rocket attacks and suicide attacks - here's a little list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

And the death toll it brings. SA doesn't matter much in that context, because the rest does not go away.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Netanyahu has disbanded the war cabinet. In his words this war cabinet was only necessary, because the party of Benny Gantz demanded it. But since Gantz now has resigned there is no further need for that.

Furthermore no new war cabinet will be formed.

The war cabinet had 6 people in it; so now Netanyahu will reign with even less people, becoming even more of a dictator in the original Roman sense.

Israel's war cabinet 'dissolved' in wake of Benny Gantz departure

No new cabinet will be formed following the exit of Gantz from the existing war cabinet, PM announced.

www.jpost.com

 

[Ellie]

Bullshit; the reason why many people are so pissed about Gaza strip is the terror coming from it in form of rocket attacks and suicide attacks

Horseshit!

New Polling Shows How Much Global Support Israel Has Lost

The U.S. remains the only rich country that still had net positive views of Israel. Net favorability dropped just 2.2 percentage points, from a net favorability of 18.2 to a net favorability of 16 from September to December.

Last suicide attack by Hamas was 2016?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Likewise, I earlier posted a list of Hamas rockets attacks on Israel, using Israeli data, showing most resulted in no casulties.

I'm saddened by the lack of empathy for all the victims you display, but encouraged by the idea Truth Will Out, as it so often does in these conflicts.

I feel sadness for the losses on both sides, caught between dangerous gov. policy and the need to have a safe home country of their own.

 

[Cristiano]

Benny Gantz accuses Netanyahu of blowing up peace deals for his own political purposes. Not a shock, considering you can see Netanyahu’s motivations from space. Gantz is not the only one verifying this.

 

[Ellie]

Breaking news, the IDF knew beforehand.

A newly surfaced document has revealed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence systems had detailed knowledge of Hamas's plan to raid Israel and kidnap 250 people weeks before the October 7 massacre.

IDF knew of Hamas's plan to kidnap 250 before October 7 attack - report

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Breaking news, the IDF knew beforehand.



IDF knew of Hamas's plan to kidnap 250 before October 7 attack - report

This is not new. A similar story about this document was posted months ago. As I said before, intelligence agencies are drowning in false reports that never go anywhere, so this isn't as meaningful as you might think. Clearly something went wrong, but it isn't nearly as clear cut that they "knew" beforehand.

 

[Ellie]

This is not new. A similar story about this document was posted months ago.

Agreed.

The document, titled "Detailed End-to-End Raid Training," was distributed on September 19, 2023, and described in detail the series of exercises conducted by Hamas elite units.

IDF knew of Hamas's plan to kidnap 250 before October 7 attack - report

intelligence agencies are drowning in false reports that never go anywhere, so this isn't as meaningful as you might think. Clearly something went wrong, but it isn't nearly as clear cut that they "knew" beforehand..

Same link (from above YT).

The IDF had precise information about Hamas's intentions, but due to prevailing conceptions within the security establishment and possible negligence by senior officials, the warning signs were not acted upon.

The report further detailed that Israeli intelligence officials monitored the exercise and documented the steps Hamas planned to take after breaching Israeli territory and taking over military posts. The expected number of hostages, according to the document, was between 200 and 250 people.

Seems clear to me what they knew and when. Even the number of hostages.

Bottom line, the info was there, and the most technologically advanced army in the world failed to act on it, for whatever reasons.

My guess is Netanyahu saw a golden political opportunity to raze Gaza, and took it, distracting from his ongoing trial for fraud and corruption.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Seems clear to me what they knew and when. Even the number of hostages.

The article you posted doesn't specify if they had an exact date. The previous article posted specifically said they didn't have an exact time or place. Hamas having an intent to attack somewhere isn't really that useful information.

Bottom line, the info was there, and the most technologically advanced army in the world failed to act on it, for whatever reasons.

My guess is Netanyahu saw a golden political opportunity to raze Gaza, and took it, distracting from his ongoing trial for fraud and corruption.

I think it's also a perfectly adequate explanation that this was simple hubris. Both articles mention how the IDF thought their security barrier would make this kind of attack impossible and they severely underestimated Hamas' manpower, and funding. I think it's entirely possible that the IDF just thought Hamas was simply not capable of such a thing. In hindsight, they of course really dropped the ball, but I'd love to know how many other reports of attacks they got that never went anywhere.

All that said, I'd be less than totally shocked if Netanyahu actually did know and did nothing. But I don't think either article is convincing that they knew this would happen with a high degree of certainty.

 

[Cristiano]

All that said, I'd be less than totally shocked if Netanyahu actually did know and did nothing. But I don't think either article is convincing that they knew this would happen with a high degree of certainty.

I don't think anyone necessarily sat on it knowing it was going to happen imminently or with specificity, even as much of a corrupt fucking monster as I think Netanyahu is. It does beg the question, however, of how Hamas was able to be so successful at carrying it out? The IDF and Israel are legendary for their security and military prowess, but they were caught completely with their pants down. How?

 

[Cristiano]

One thing I will say from the thumbnail of that Youtube video with Netanyahu and Gantz - they need less old identical looking dudes named Benjamin

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

I don't think anyone necessarily sat on it knowing it was going to happen imminently or with specificity, even as much of a corrupt fucking monster as I think Netanyahu is. It does beg the question, however, of how Hamas was able to be so successful at carrying it out? The IDF and Israel are legendary for their security and military prowess, but they were caught completely with their pants down. How?

I think it's a combination of the IDF's hubris and Hamas getting increased foreign support from governments, particularly Iran. There is some reporting that Iran may have assisted with this attack to a very large degree, though I admit I don't completely trust the sources as to what extent. I believe Iran has been doing a lot to stir the pot here. ...not that Netanyahu has helped much either.

 

[Ellie]

Sigh.

How pro-Israeli groups spearhead campaigns to pass “anti-BDS” state laws penalizing Americans for engaging in boycotts or other non-violent protests of Israel.

Its latest incarnation is part of a hardline and sometimes covert operation by the Israeli government to strike back at student protests, human rights organizations and other voices of dissent.


CyberWell, a pro-Israel anti-disinformation group led by former Israeli military intelligence and Voices officials, has established itself as an official “trusted partner” to TikTok and Meta, helping both social platforms screen and edit content. A recent CyberWell report called for Meta to suppress the popular slogan “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”.

The firm used hundreds of fake accounts posting pro-Israel or anti-Muslim content on X (formerly Twitter), Facebook and Instagram. (The diaspora affairs ministry denied involvement in the campaign, which reportedly provided about $2m to an Israeli firm for the social media posts.)This investigative report reviewed recent government hearings, Israeli corporate filings, procurement documents and other public records. While private individuals and foundations primarily fund many of the organizations devoted to pro-Israel advocacy, most likely without foreign direction, the records point to substantial Israeli government involvement in American politics about the Gaza war, free speech on college campuses and Israel-Palestine policy.

“There’s a fixation on policing American discourse on the US-Israel relationship, even college campus discourse, from Israel, going all the way up to Prime Minister Netanyahu,” said Eli Clifton, a senior adviser at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. “One struggles to find a parallel in terms of a foreign country’s influence over American political debate.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/24/israel-fund-us-university-protest-gaza-antisemitism

 

[Soen Eber]

Intelligence reports being ignored amongst the din of "too much information" and "never going to happen here" is older than dirt. When the Mongolians surprised the kingdom of Hungary in 1241 and pretty much had their run of the place, a report came out afterwards detailing how best to deal with them (getting foodstuffs into strong fortifications, improving and building new fortifications, having lots and lots of crossbowmen and heavy cavalry available) came out after some intense study and was made widely available throughout Europe. Only Hungary, who had first-hand experience, implemented those ideas; everyone else ignored them.

Guess what happened in 1285 when the Mongolians came sweeping through again? It's not like the other European kingdoms were suffering from information overload ...

note: I'm still attempting to verify my faulty recollection. Since Poland also followed Hungary's lead and was able to defeat their Mongol invasion in 1287 it's much more likely the reports came from a non-European source.