Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

Bartholomew Gallacher

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You're forgetting the Nakba and the terrorism of Irgun, Lehi, and other fine people. Also, thank you for making up excuses for collective punishment, which is precisely what the "fine people" of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS did in Kandanos, Kommeno, Distomo, and other such places as "retaliation".
Blahblahblah, you keep repeating yourself like a broken record, only cherry picking stuff which fits in your narrow "all palestines are innocent victims" point of view while blissfully ignoring all of the rest which could darken that delusion of yours. I always read from you that the beheaded babies were fabricated, but never read from you once here that you felt sad about the ~1200 people killed by Hamas at 07/10/2023, which tells a lot about you and your little narrowed down view of the world.

Come to terms with reality and finally get it into that thick concrete skull of yours that the Palestines are not only poor victims, but parts of them wrongdoers at quite a big level since decades as well. Same goes with Israel, they also are victims and wrongdoers at the same time.

There's plenty of reason why the Palestines have so little support from the muslimic world, which is really sad but also a tell tale sign.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I don't see how a country with an explicitly ethno-religious constitution can accurately be described as a "secular enlightenment" project. Part of the impetus behind Zionism was that, while the Enlightenment offered Jewish emancipation, it did so on the condition that Jews gave up their distinctively Jewish identity.

The classic statement of this is from Clermont–Tonnerre's "Speech on Religious Minorities and Questionable Professions" (23 December 1789)
But, they say to me, the Jews have their own judges and laws. I respond that is your fault and you should not allow it. We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals. We must withdraw recognition from their judges; they should only have our judges. We must refuse legal protection to the maintenance of the so-called laws of their Judaic organization; they should not be allowed to form in the state either a political body or an order. They must be citizens individually. But, some will say to me, they do not want to be citizens. Well then! If they do not want to be citizens, they should say so, and then, we should banish them. It is repugnant to have in the state an association of non-citizens, and a nation within the nation. . . . In short, Sirs, the presumed status of every man resident in a country is to be a citizen.
Zionism grew out of C19th Romantic nationalism and self-determination, with the idea that, rather than being subjects of multinational, multi-religious empires, various national groups should have their own independent nation states -- Poland for the Poles, Hungary for the Hungarians, Greece for the Greeks, Finland for the Finns, Ireland for the Irish, Israel for the Jews...

Israel was a result of the collapse of the Turkish Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1 , as were Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon and so on, as were Hungary, Romania, Austria and so on the result of the collapse of the Hapsburg Empire, and everyone was perfectly well-aware that there were Arab, Jewish and Christian communities living there at the time.

Nor do I see how Israel can be described as a colonialist enterprise, at least not if by "colonialism" you mean a system of state policy whereby capitalist enterprises, sponsored by their governments, subjugate territories and exploit their labour and natural resources for the benefit of the companies' shareholders and governments. The whole point about a colony is that it's a colony of some other country.

The French colonialists against whom Fanon was fighting in Algeria were French citizens, just as the British Colonialists just about everywhere were British subjects, and they were able to return to the metropole, willingly or not, when the colonies gained their independence. Of where are Israeli Jews supposed to be citizens, other than Israel? Where is their metropole? Palestine was a British protectorate after WW1, but Britain certainly wasn't trying to develop it as a Jewish colony -- on the contrary, Britain was anxious to limit Jewish emigration to Palestine precisely because HM had considerably more Muslim subjects throughout his empire than he had Jewish ones, and his government feared provoking their anger.

The state of Israel was founded because, post WW2, there were hundreds of thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors from all over Europe stuck in displaced persons camps with nowhere else to go and who desperately wanted to feel safe in their own, Jewish, state rather than to be a minority in someone else's country. And then, post independence, their numbers were swelled by huge numbers of North African and Middle-Eastern Jews who were expelled by their own governments.

Whatever Israel is, it's not someone else's colony, and never has been. The pieds noires in Algeria had France to which to go, however unwillingly. The Israelis don't.
 

Ellie

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Biden said recently no one is above the law in response to the Trump Guilty verdict, but it's very obvious that is not true.

A recent guardian.com article, link below, stated, "The state department falsified a report earlier this month to absolve Israel of responsibility for blocking humanitarian aid flows into Gaza, overruling the advice of its own experts, according to a former senior US official who resigned this week."

Why would the US state department do this?

"because under a clause in the Foreign Assistance Act, the US would be obliged to cut arms sales and security assistance to any country found to have blocked delivery of US aid."

"I cannot do my job in an environment in which specific people cannot be acknowledged as fully human, or where gender and human rights principles apply to some, but not to others, depending on their race,” said USAID contractor Alexander Smith, who resigned on Monday.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/stacy-gilbert-us-state-department-israel-gaza-aid

As I sit here, enjoying my freshly-brewed Saturday morning coffee and fried rice from a local street vendor, after an intense work week wih insane deadlines has left me with little energy to cook for myself, I know no matter how difficult my life becomes, I will never face what Palestinians endure on a daily basis, because I was fortunate to born more or less white, in a western country.

Enough pontification, Israel must not be allowed to continue its murderous rampage against the Palestinians.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Enough pontification, Israel must not be allowed to continue its murderous rampage against the Palestinians.
Who, though, is in a position to prevent it? Netanyahu doesn't seem to take much notice of what President Biden, let alone anyone else, has to say.

Threats to cut off military aid are, to my mind, rather empty, because US foreign policy in the Middle East depends on having Saudi and Israel as regional military superpowers as a counterweight to Iran.

There's also the very real consideration that Israel has its own tactical nuclear deterrent, and it's in everyone's interests to ensure that it's sufficiently well-supplied with conventional weapons never to need to contemplate using it.
 

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Who, though, is in a position to prevent it? Netanyahu doesn't seem to take much notice of what President Biden, let alone anyone else, has to say.

Threats to cut off military aid are, to my mind, rather empty, because US foreign policy in the Middle East depends on having Saudi and Israel as regional military superpowers as a counterweight to Iran.

There's also the very real consideration that Israel has its own tactical nuclear deterrent, and it's in everyone's interests to ensure that it's sufficiently well-supplied with conventional weapons never to need to contemplate using it.
Yes.. And to build on what you are saying, Hamas receives Billions from all over the Middle East and especially Iran. This is so they will intentionally provoke Israel at every opportunity. Their stated purpose it to eradicate Jewish people, not to help Palestinians. I feel horrible for the regular Palestinians who are caught in the middle of this mess. Both Netanyahu (and his right wing supporters) and Hamas seem to view regular Palestinians as unfortunate but necessary sacrifices towards their goals of destroying each other.
 

Ellie

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Who, though, is in a position to prevent it? Netanyahu doesn't seem to take much notice of what President Biden, let alone anyone else, has to say.
Agree Netanyahu appears not to care what any person or nation thinks of him and his country. He's hell-bent on clearing out the Palestinians to steal their land and Gaza's offshore gas resources.

The 7 October 2023 Hamas attack gave him an excuse to expedite it. Would not be at all surprized to find he had intel on it & ignored it. Bastard cares little for his countrymen's lives.

A step in the right direction would be world press and leaders refraining from repeating Israeli gov lies, you know, all those accusations of Hamas atrocities already debunked by Israeli & other press used to dehumanize Palestiians and support Israeli gov's murder & removal policy.

Shadowy 'Hospital'? Are you fucking kidding me?

Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees - AP explains

They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Old and busted: Russia meddling with the internal affairs of America.

Hot and new: Israel meddling with the internal affairs of America using fake news.

The Israeli government is behind a large-scale influence campaign primarily aimed at Black lawmakers and young progressives in the United States and Canada. The operation, whose existence was first reported by Haaretz in March, was launched after the start of the war in Gaza and was intended to sway certain segments of public opinion on Israel's conduct.

The influence campaign made extensive use of fake websites and social media to promote content that is pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim content, as well as disinformation about antisemitism on American campuses, according to an investigation by the Fake Reporter organization, published today.

The operation was run by a private Israeli online political campaigning firm called STOIC that was hired for the project. According to sources and information obtained by Haaretz, the operation was commissioned by Israel's Diaspora Affairs Ministry but carried out by a different party, for fear that its exposure could entangle Israel in a crisis. The ministry oversees a number of firms for a number of different purposes and goals. Among the candidates for the job was the organization Voices of Israel, which received half of its original funding from the Israeli government, though it was not tapped for the task in the end.

Voices of Israel said in an official response, that: "We have no connection, either direct or indirect, to the aforementioned activities allegedly invovlng the targeting of lawmakers – nor did we have any knowledge of it at any stage."

The Diaspora Affairs Ministry denied involvement in the influence operation that has been revealed, but a source in the ministry confirmed that, generally, the ministry funds official campaigns as well as unofficial ones.

 

GoblinCampFollower

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https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-deaths-women-children-360c6aabc03421c718d4a8452cec2c67

The AP dug deeper into the official casualty figures and figured out more of the deaths were likely combatants than Hamas has claimed. This is still an ugly, terrible war and the IDF have made some terrible screw ups but I believe these figures contradict the idea that IDF is just recklessly slaughtering innocents.

Urban warfare is always a horrible thing and I do wish the IDF relied more on boots on the ground and not bombs but I don't believe this war constitutes a genocide.
 
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Ellie

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https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-deaths-women-children-360c6aabc03421c718d4a8452cec2c67
The AP dug deeper into the official casualty figures and figured out more of the deaths were likely combatants than Hamas has claimed.
Deja vu all over again.

“U.S. President Joe Biden has cast doubt on casualty figures provided by Palestinian officials in Gaza, but international humanitarian agencies consider them broadly accurate and historically reliable.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/

...I believe these figures contradict the idea that IDF is just recklessly slaughtering innocents.
Israeli gov propaganda has you convinced? Did you read Bartholomew Gallacher’s post right above yours?

Even Biden has repeated propaganda concerning Gaza deaths, and the infamous beheaded babies slander, among others, so don’t feel too bad about it.

Sure, it’s more comfortable to believe that, but many, many reports show that’s just not true.

UN recently put Israel on it’s list of offenders that harm children.

“Inclusion comes after eight months of the country’s bombing of Gaza which has killed 13,000 children.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/07/united-nations-israel-children-rights-violation

Israeli forces just killed 100 more Palestinians rescuing 4 hostages

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/08/israel-rescues-four-hostages-in-gaza-taken-from-nova-music-festival

While it’s very good news these 4 are now safe home and reunited with their families, let’s take a moment to consider those 100 Palestinians killed in this raid, as well as the 7,000 Palestinians, including children, held at Israeli facilities in appalling conditions, and their families.

These complaints have resulted in a total of three criminal investigations and no indictments, according to the Public Committee Against Torture, an Israeli rights group. The group Military Court Watch reported that, in 22 cases of detention of Palestinian children they documented in 2023, 64 percent said they were physically abused and 73 percent were strip searched by Israeli forces while in detention.
Almost like the post above by Bartholomew Gallacher titled “Israel meddling with the internal affairs of America using fake news” never happened.

Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?

Get enough Fakebook likes and, who knows, maybe enough gullible socmed consumers can be convinced it’s all untrue.

A very slippery slope. What’s next? Holocaust denial?
 

GoblinCampFollower

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That article was back in October. It therefore isn't using anywhere near the same dataset that Associated Press was using that I linked to. The death tolls can keep changing over time.

Israeli gov propaganda has you convinced? Did you read Bartholomew Gallacher’s post right above yours?
I don't think you can fairly just dismiss the AP as "Israeli propaganda" or just some random fake site.

Even Biden has repeated propaganda concerning Gaza deaths, and the infamous beheaded babies slander, among others, so don’t feel too bad about it.

Sure, it’s more comfortable to believe that, but many, many reports show that’s just not true.

UN recently put Israel on it’s list of offenders that harm children.

“Inclusion comes after eight months of the country’s bombing of Gaza which has killed 13,000 children.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/07/united-nations-israel-children-rights-violation

Israeli forces just killed 100 more Palestinians rescuing 4 hostages

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/08/israel-rescues-four-hostages-in-gaza-taken-from-nova-music-festival

While it’s very good news these 4 are now safe home and reunited with their families, let’s take a moment to consider those 100 Palestinians killed in this raid, as well as the 7,000 Palestinians, including children, held at Israeli facilities in appalling conditions, and their families.



Almost like the post above by Bartholomew Gallacher titled “Israel meddling with the internal affairs of America using fake news” never happened.

Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?

Get enough Fakebook likes and, who knows, maybe enough gullible socmed consumers can be convinced it’s all untrue.

A very slippery slope. What’s next? Holocaust denial?
Nothing you posted directly contradicts the AP articles figures. I fully agree and have said before that I think Israel has done a lot of bad things and I've said before I think Netanyahu needs to go. I don't take the Israeli government at face value but do think the AP is about as good of a neutral source as any we have which maybe isn't saying much. I certainly don't trust what Hamas says either. Many neutral sources have also admitted they really had no idea what was going on since they can't get in there. I thought the AP article was worth posting but frankly don't take anything I've heard as gospel.
 
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Ellie

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That article was back in October. It therefore isn't using anywhere near the same dataset that Associated Press was using that I linked to. The death tolls can keep changing over time. I don't think you can fairly just dismiss the AP as "Israeli propaganda" or just some random fake site....
Agree my article is old. However, most media quoting stats use those provided by the Gaza Health Authority because they've proved fairly accurate over decades.

I'm not claiming any possible reduction in the percentages of civilians to combatants killed is fake news, but possibly news, passed by unwitting editors, intended to distract us from what is happening over there. It's mostly irrelevant!

One problem with mainstream press is they all must submit all reports to their Jerusalem offices for Israeli gov. censorship purposes, claimed to be to protect military info, but in practise this tends to make jurnos working under these restrictions reluctant to report on any any topic even remotely likely to upset the Israeli gov.

Not calling AP "Israeli propaganda," just providing context of the world these jurnos must now work in.

"Many neutral sources have also admitted they really had no idea what was going on since they can't get in there."

Yes, but....The many, many socmed posts with video, even the ones by IDF members, show evidence of Gaza being leveled and its residents killed. And worse.

Tens of thousands of innocents are being slaughtered 'cos Netanyahu and his mob seek revenge, freedom from prosecution, & some new seafront real estate to develop & flog alongside their new arab pals.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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Agree my article is old. However, most media quoting stats use those provided by the Gaza Health Authority because they've proved fairly accurate over decades.

I'm not claiming any possible reduction in the percentages of civilians to combatants killed is fake news, but possibly news, passed by unwitting editors, intended to distract us from what is happening over there. It's mostly irrelevant!

One problem with mainstream press is they all must submit all reports to their Jerusalem offices for Israeli gov. censorship purposes, claimed to be to protect military info, but in practise this tends to make jurnos working under these restrictions reluctant to report on any any topic even remotely likely to upset the Israeli gov.

Not calling AP "Israeli propaganda," just providing context of the world these jurnos must now work in.

"Many neutral sources have also admitted they really had no idea what was going on since they can't get in there."

Yes, but....The many, many socmed posts with video, even the ones by IDF members, show evidence of Gaza being leveled and its residents killed. And worse.

Tens of thousands of innocents are being slaughtered 'cos Netanyahu and his mob seek revenge, freedom from prosecution, & some new seafront real estate to develop & flog alongside their new arab pals.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. The biggest thing that I want to add is that the Gaza Health Ministry does report to the Hamas Government. I'm sure there are good people in the Gaza Health Ministry but they'd also know better than to risk angering Sinwar. I know I'd rather piss off Netanyahu as an Israeli journalist than Sinwar as a Palestinian.
 

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Mona Eberhardt

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I don't disagree with what you're saying. The biggest thing that I want to add is that the Gaza Health Ministry does report to the Hamas Government. I'm sure there are good people in the Gaza Health Ministry but they'd also know better than to risk angering Sinwar. I know I'd rather piss off Netanyahu as an Israeli journalist than Sinwar as a Palestinian.
Sorry, the Pallywood bunk has already been debunked multiple times. Also, why is it that Israel doesn't want to let journos verify things? It's The Only Democracy In The Middle East® and it's TOTALLYHONEST® after all, right?
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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Sorry, the Pallywood bunk has already been debunked multiple times. Also, why is it that Israel doesn't want to let journos verify things? It's The Only Democracy In The Middle East® and it's TOTALLYHONEST® after all, right?
I have repeatedly acknowledged Netanyahu needs to go. Meanwhile, I'd invite you to apply the same level of scrutiny to the Hamas government that you do to Israel.
 
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Ellie

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After the very recent UN release of its first investigation into October 7 and ongoing Gaza genocide by Israel, accusations of atrocities, including that Hamas conducted SA and mass SA during that raid, have resurfaced. Biden repeated it, and claimed to have seen photographic evidence, later walked back by his gov.

It is important to dig very deep into this accusation, as it provided the Israeli gov. with 'justification' to raze Gaza and a huge global media boost.

Mainstream UK media, The Times of London, published an in-depth report on this topic, stating,

"Critics argue that Israeli officials have regularly wielded the rape claim as a cudgel to silence critics of their assault on Gaza."

"In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found."

The Israeli gov. has been unable to produce any evidence of its October 7 Hamas SA accusation, despite repeating it endlessly, and it featuring hugely in media reporting and attempts to justify the annihilation of Gaza and all its inhabitants.

If I were a Hamas operative, the last thing on my mind during such an operation, considering massive IDF forces could arrive at any minute, would be SA of the enemy.

Sources: (Trigger Warning)

Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?

https://archive.is/BFEL6

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-war-crimes-isreal-hamas-gaza-12jun24/

https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1800826844293501110
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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So the Hamas raped no women at 07/10/2023? Wow, I am sure the 1139 innocent people they've killed at 07/10/2023 will just love to hear about that in their afterlife, and the families they have left behind will now be so much more at peace knowing that their loved ones were only killed, but nobody was raped. Thanks for letting us know.
 
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