Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

GoblinCampFollower

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Let me remind everyone that 9/11 was done by the same guys the USA funded and armed against the USSR in Afghanistan....
I know this. But the point was that a lot of old conservatives interpreted 9/11 to be a GREAT justification for anti arab racism. It absolutely colors how many see the recent war in Gaza.
 

Ellie

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A headline in today's Guardian

Now, an investigation by the Guardian and the Israeli-based magazines +972 and Local Call can reveal how Israel has run an almost decade-long secret “war” against the court. The country deployed its intelligence agencies to surveil, hack, pressure, smear and allegedly threaten senior ICC staff in an effort to derail the court’s inquiries.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed

Guardian cartoon for today
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2024/may/28/theres-more-than-one-way-to-think-about-gaza
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Israel is more and more using methods of rogue states. Mossad director Yossi Cohen personally involved in secret plot to pressure Fatou Bensouda to drop Palestine investigation, sources say.

The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.

 

Mona Eberhardt

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Here's a quick history refresher:

1973. Flight 114 of Libyan Arab Airlines entered Israeli airspace (including the then-occupied by Israel Sinai peninsula) due to a malfunction of its navigation equipment. Two F-4 Phantoms of the Israeli Air Force shot it down, killing 108 of the 113 on board. No one remembers it today. No one in the "civilised" (let's be honest, by "civilised" we've been raised to mean "white") world gave a rodent's rectum about it.

1983. Flight 007 of Korean Air Lines entered Soviet airspace due to navigation error. General Anatoly Kornukov (a real bastard's bastard with a true criminal psyche) ordered it be shot down. So it was. All 269 on board were killed. This sparked (rightly) widespread condemnation throughout the word. The crime was commemorated in popular culture: film, music (Gary Moore's "Murder In The Skies" from the "Victims of The Future" album), documentary / docudrama.

I'll let you all guess, and perhaps interpret, the reasons for the glaringly different reactions of the "civilised" world towards these two crimes.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Israel is more and more using methods of rogue states. Mossad director Yossi Cohen personally involved in secret plot to pressure Fatou Bensouda to drop Palestine investigation, sources say.

The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.

Israel's campaign to undermine the ICC and the ICJ goes back at least 9 years. It's not like they started pulling such stunts today.
 

Lexxi

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Here's a quick history refresher:

1973. Flight 114 of Libyan Arab Airlines entered Israeli airspace (including the then-occupied by Israel Sinai peninsula) due to a malfunction of its navigation equipment. Two F-4 Phantoms of the Israeli Air Force shot it down, killing 108 of the 113 on board. No one remembers it today. No one in the "civilised" (let's be honest, by "civilised" we've been raised to mean "white") world gave a rodent's rectum about it.

1983. Flight 007 of Korean Air Lines entered Soviet airspace due to navigation error. General Anatoly Kornukov (a real bastard's bastard with a true criminal psyche) ordered it be shot down. So it was. All 269 on board were killed. This sparked (rightly) widespread condemnation throughout the word. The crime was commemorated in popular culture: film, music (Gary Moore's "Murder In The Skies" from the "Victims of The Future" album), documentary / docudrama.

I'll let you all guess, and perhaps interpret, the reasons for the glaringly different reactions of the "civilised" world towards these two crimes.
Doesn't appear to have been completely ignored.
 

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Lexxi

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How many times did you see it mentioned in predominantly white countries' popular culture, besides that news piece from 1973? You know, songs, TV episodes, movies, documentaries, that sort of thing.
No idea, but more than "no one". And a quick Google showed it mentioned after 1973. There was an article from 2010 about the Dutch boy who survived that crash, etc.

Did remind me USA has shot down passenger planes as well. July 3 1988 - Iran Air Flight 655 shot down by the USS Vincennes. All 290 on board died. I believe I saw this one on one of the Air Crash Investigation shows. I know I've seen the Korean one on there. I've seen crashes that occurred in and around the middle east on that show, not sure if any of them involved the 1973 crash.

 

Mona Eberhardt

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No idea, but more than "no one". And a quick Google showed it mentioned after 1973. There was an article from 2010 about the Dutch boy who survived that crash, etc.

Did remind me USA has shot down passenger planes as well. July 3 1988 - Iran Air Flight 655 shot down by the USS Vincennes. All 290 on board died. I believe I saw this one on one of the Air Crash Investigation shows. I know I've seen the Korean one on there. I've seen crashes that occurred in and around the middle east on that show, not sure if any of them involved the 1973 crash.

You might have read some journalistic coverage of Flight 114, like this one from Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-18/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/when-israel-shot-down-a-libyan-passenger-plane-but-refused-to-take-responsibility/00000186-f186-dd8e-a7d7-f7ef464e0000

But Mayday has not made an episode about it, and it won't. No media from predominantly white countries has ever done a documentary on it, either. And they won't. We all know why.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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In my previous missives that mentioned the almost completely erased from public memory Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114, I pointed to an endemic mainstream casual racist attitude towards Africans, Arabs, and Muslims in our predominantly white, English-capable, Christian (regardless of denomination) societies. We were (rightly) up in arms against the Soviets for shooting down that Korean plane, murdering 269 innocent civilians and then lying off their teeth about it. We were outraged for Kornukov's later career - his crime, which he never regretted, didn't hurt his promotion at all. We commemorated the victims in song, TV, documentary, film (through a passing reference in a movie).

But what about the Libyan plane? Oh, that. Yeah, like we would ever care, LOL. The attitude of the average American, Brit, German, what have you, is, whether we want to admit it or not, "it was a Libyan Arab plane. Therefore, it was chock-full of Islamist terrorist niggers. Israel had every reason to shoot it down." Israel's long history of atrocities towards Palestinians is well-documented, but we've been making all sorts of excuses for it. And that's because we view Palestinians as "too brown" and as being of the "wrong religion." Like it or not, our double standards prove it.

Why do you think Joe Biden, Olaf Scholz, Emmanuel Macron, Keir Stürmer haven't said a word about Israel's dirty 9-year war against the International Criminal Court? As the Guardian reports: "Another [source] said there was no hesitation internally [i.e. among Israeli officials] over spying on the prosecutor, adding: “With Bensouda, she’s black and African, so who cares?”"

Want more? When Israel falsely accused UNRWA of being involved with Hamas, the US, the UK, Australia, Germany, Austria and others immediately stopped their funding. And even when an investigation was carried out, proving that Israel's claims were wholly unsubstantiated (it seems that Israel knows it doesn't ever have to prove its claims), Biden passed a law prohibiting US funding towards UNRWA until 2025! Yet, when presented with actual hard evidence of the innocence of those Israel smears, with actual hard evidence of Israel's crimes, our white powers (perhaps the plural is unnecessary here) pretend like it's not there.

That's racism. The chronic, endemic belief that Palestinians by definition lie about their suffering (the "Pallywood" canard that Biden so willingly parroted, falling completely in line with the GOP) is racist. It's part of our racist and colonialist upbringing and our indoctrination that POCs and Muslims are, by definition, evil or, at best, inferior. How do I know? As a young adult, I managed to realise and admit I was raised this way: in Greece, we were (I don't know what's happening now, as I'm 44) indoctrinated to hate the Turks and blame them for everything - and don't even get me started on the irredentist songs about Istanbul / Constantinople and crap like that. We were indoctrinated to believe that our Christian Orthodox faith is the one and only true and valid religion, that Catholics and Protestants are heretics, that Jews are inherently evil for "crucifying our Lord and Saviour," that Muslims are inherently evil for, well, existing. We were raised on a diet of racist, sexist, misogynist, dehumanising "jokes" targeting blondes, Pontiots (Greeks of the Black Sea - these were presented as confounded morons in Greek theatre, cinema, and - later - video and TV for four decades solid), effete men, masculine women, blacks, Gypsies, LGBTQI people, people with disabilities, etc.

This indoctrination employs many tactics: from outright, explicit use of racist speech befitting a GOP or AfD candidate to weasel words as used by the likes of NYT and WaPo. This indoctrination is precisely why we're not outraged by Israel burning people alive in Rafah, but parroting its lies about "beheaded" or "baked" babies. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/30/biden-palestinian-beheaded-israeli-babies
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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How many times did you see it mentioned in predominantly white countries' popular culture, besides that news piece from 1973? You know, songs, TV episodes, movies, documentaries, that sort of thing.
Frankly that's a can of worms. ...because most of the terrible acts committed around the world are barely noticed by the West. If you look at the below list, you'll see some mindbogglingly terrible acts that also didn't get their own protest songs either. I think many of the culprits of these other evil acts benefit a lot from the racism of lowered expectations and it does seem like many people see killings as a bigger deal when Israel does them. I agree Israel has benefited a lot from anti arabic racism in their Western Benefactors but as I've said before, this seems to be a double edged sword.

 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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This indoctrination employs many tactics: from outright, explicit use of racist speech befitting a GOP or AfD candidate to weasel words as used by the likes of NYT and WaPo. This indoctrination is precisely why we're not outraged by Israel burning people alive in Rafah, but parroting its lies about "beheaded" or "baked" babies. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/30/biden-palestinian-beheaded-israeli-babies
Let me enlighten you why normally people have not much sympathy with the Palestines: because most of the times it were the Palestines who pulled the trigger first.

Oh bummer, they did so at 07/10/2023 - well that's... unfortunate, then.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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Let me enlighten you why normally people have not much sympathy with the Palestines: because most of the times it were the Palestines who pulled the trigger first.

Oh bummer, they did so at 07/10/2023 - well that's... unfortunate, then.
The Yazidi didn't pull the trigger first against ISIS but that genocide was still in and out of the news much faster. The fact is, most people usually don't care that much about horrific things that happened many thousands of miles away from home. I think Mona is right that racism is part of that, but it also feeds into why we seem to care so much more about some slaughters than others.
 

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Let me enlighten you why normally people have not much sympathy with the Palestines: because most of the times it were the Palestines who pulled the trigger first.

Oh bummer, they did so at 07/10/2023 - well that's... unfortunate, then.
You're forgetting the Nakba and the terrorism of Irgun, Lehi, and other fine people. Also, thank you for making up excuses for collective punishment, which is precisely what the "fine people" of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS did in Kandanos, Kommeno, Distomo, and other such places as "retaliation".
 

Mona Eberhardt

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Frankly that's a can of worms. ...because most of the terrible acts committed around the world are barely noticed by the West. If you look at the below list, you'll see some mindbogglingly terrible acts that also didn't get their own protest songs either. I think many of the culprits of these other evil acts benefit a lot from the racism of lowered expectations and it does seem like many people see killings as a bigger deal when Israel does them. I agree Israel has benefited a lot from anti arabic racism in their Western Benefactors but as I've said before, this seems to be a double edged sword.

Obviously, people who are closer - ethnically, religiously, geopolitically - to the Palestinians (Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians) are more prone to see Israeli crimes in a different light than those who align with it. In Ireland, many people, knowing Ireland's suffering through man-made starvation at the hands of the British (the Great Famine, which was compounded by the sociopathic "moralistic" arguments of many British politicians), religious persecution,and violence, identify with the Palestinians. In Greece, on the other hand, the loudest pro-Israel voice is that of Adonis Georgiades, Minister of Health and peddler of pseudohistory and far-right material (including one of the most vile works of antisemitism, written by Konstantinos Plevris, prominent Greek neonazi theorist and liaison between the junta and Italian neo-fascist groups like Ordine Nuovo).
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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What do the USA and Israel have in common aka why do they help out each other? Well:
  • Both the USA and Israel are secular enlightenment projects:
    • They follow a moral-political universalism: if there are to be right rules, the rules of what is right must apply globally.
    • However, both the USA and Israel also claim a (religiously motivated) special role for themselves. Keyword: the chosen people or god's own country. Universalism plus exceptionalism together explain why neither the USA nor Israel are prepared to accept a legal authority above them (a world court, for example) - and also why both are extremely allergic to criticism from outside.
  • While internal tolerance of criticism is high, external criticism is almost reflexively seen as a threat to the entire project, as anti-Americanism on the one hand and as anti-Zionism (or even anti-Semitism) on the other.
  • Both projects are also colonisation projects. Both followed the fiction of empty space. In the Israeli case, this meant: ‘A land without a people for a people without a land.’ For the settlers, the ‘indigenous people’ of the two target countries were - and in some cases still are - either non-existent or primitive.
  • Both countries started as democracies.
Both countries are subject to the same danger: namely that of falling victim to their own militarisation.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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What do the USA and Israel have in common aka why do they help out each other? Well:
  • Both the USA and Israel are secular enlightenment projects:
    • They follow a moral-political universalism: if there are to be right rules, the rules of what is right must apply globally.
    • However, both the USA and Israel also claim a (religiously motivated) special role for themselves. Keyword: the chosen people or god's own country. Universalism plus exceptionalism together explain why neither the USA nor Israel are prepared to accept a legal authority above them (a world court, for example) - and also why both are extremely allergic to criticism from outside.
  • While internal tolerance of criticism is high, external criticism is almost reflexively seen as a threat to the entire project, as anti-Americanism on the one hand and as anti-Zionism (or even anti-Semitism) on the other.
  • Both projects are also colonisation projects. Both followed the fiction of empty space. In the Israeli case, this meant: ‘A land without a people for a people without a land.’ For the settlers, the ‘indigenous people’ of the two target countries were - and in some cases still are - either non-existent or primitive.
  • Both countries started as democracies.
Both countries are subject to the same danger: namely that of falling victim to their own militarisation.
I'm not sure the overwhelming majority of Israel's politicians actually sees the country as a secular enlightenment project. At least, not anymore. With legislation that makes it notoriously hard for non-white Jews and non-Jewish people to do much of anything (don't get me started on the forced sterilisation of black Jews), they're actually more like European identarians (Orbán, Van Grieken, Krah, Le Pen).

You correctly mentioned the religiously motivated exceptionalism of the US and Israel - Greece has a very similar problem, as its exceedingly powerful Christian Orthodox clergy has always pushed the notion that, after Jews fell from grace post-crucifixion, Greeks became the chosen people. :rolleyes:
Hence the allergy to external criticism, the allergy to legal authority above the political-religious complex (Greece has no separation of Church and State), and so on.
Internal tolerance of criticism is low both in Israel and Greece - you can get SLAPPed out of existence, fired, blacklisted, attacked by the Police and para-state far-right factions, and so on. External criticism causes - in both countries, mainly among right-wing politicians and voters - knee-jerk reactions with conspiracy theories getting flung about.
 

Ellie

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When Israel falsely accused UNRWA of being involved with Hamas, the US, the UK, Australia, Germany, Austria and others immediately stopped their funding. And even when an investigation was carried out, proving that Israel's claims were wholly unsubstantiated (it seems that Israel knows it doesn't ever have to prove its claims), Biden passed a law prohibiting US funding towards UNRWA until 2025! Yet, when presented with actual hard evidence of the innocence of those Israel smears, with actual hard evidence of Israel's crimes, our white powers (perhaps the plural is unnecessary here) pretend like it's not there....This indoctrination employs many tactics: from outright, explicit use of racist speech befitting a GOP or AfD candidate to weasel words as used by the likes of NYT and WaPo. This indoctrination is precisely why we're not outraged by Israel burning people alive in Rafah, but parroting its lies about "beheaded" or "baked" babies. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/30/biden-palestinian-beheaded-israeli-babies
The huge Israeli Propaganda victory of getting the US President to repeat the beheaded babies lie and the US halt UNRWA funding, plus the NYT article Screams Without Words about alleged Hamas mass SA, convinced many that Hamas, and by association all Palestinians, are murderous savages unworthy of human treatment, and therefore, bombing Gaza back into the stone age is completely justifiable.

So easily debunked, yet most of the world fell for these lies. Some still believe them.

The israeli policy to stave out Palestinians continues:

US can't afford admit the truth as that would mean they have to halt some arms sales to Israel under US law.

The state department falsified a report earlier this month to absolve Israel of responsibility for blocking humanitarian aid flows into Gaza, overruling the advice of its own experts, according to a former senior US official who resigned this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/stacy-gilbert-us-state-department-israel-gaza-aid