Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

GoblinCampFollower

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It kills me how these last three posts attempt to dictate how people are supposed to voice their protests in an "approved" manner. It's not what they are doing, it's how they do it or concern that they might be wasting their time. No, it's what they are doing that really bothers you.

My God. Look at what is happening to these Palestinian people. I'm glad people are doing something.
It's an objective fact that terrorizing local Jewish people is not helping Palestinians. Good intentions doesn't mean your actions are doing any good. This isn't a difficult concept. Going back to what I said to you earlier, would you go shout at local black people in response to a genocide in the Congo? Is that a good protest? By your reasoning it must be because any protest with good intentions is at least "doing something."

And I know you can't be reasoned with, I'm saying this for anyone else reading this.
 

Ellie

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My point is that that, while the great majority of the people attending these demonstrations are, I am sure, there not because they have bear any particular animosity towards Jews but because they want to protest against the suffering of the people of Gaza. However, at least in the UK, they are marching under the auspices of an organisation that, on October 8th, greeted the news of the largest mass murder of Jews since WW2, with this
From your X link:

"The offensive launched from Gaza today can only be understood in the context of Israel's ongoing, decades long, military occupation and colonization of Palestinian land and imposition of a system of oppression that meets the legal definition of apartheid."

I agree with this part, sadly can't see the rest due Elon Musk's policy.

After all, if your family members were killed and kidnapped (Israeli held around 7,000 Palestinians in cruel conditions last I heard), stole your homes (especially in East Jerusalem) and land (particularly West Bank land), destroyed all your hospitals, schools & universities, used snipers to target noncombatants, including children, going about their daily business, and the turned around and told you it was all your fault & they want to wipe you all off the face of the earth, then might you be just angry enough to mount an offensive operation?

I certainly would. Especially if recent event were an escalation of what had already happened over decades.

To refer to the Hamas offensive as a pogrom, I feel, is not correct, as I understand the stated operational aim of Hamas was to take Israeli hostages to exchange with the Israeli gov for Palestinians it held, and not mindlessly massacre Jews. As always, open to learning more about this.

I fail to see how anyone can believe what Hamas has done is worse than the actions of the Israeli gov. Except perhaps if I were the UK equivalent of a US Fox News true believer who swallowing everything said whole as gospel. Or I had a strong pro-Israeli gov bias or worked for these monsters.

Ultimately this conflict mostly isn't about Jews Vs. Muslims, but Netanyahu's vehicle to continue his corruption, stay in power and keep his possessions, and his need to avoid any legal consequences of his bad actions over decades.

Parallels with Trump seeking reelection to avoid going to jail in the US, perhaps?

As for the marches in the UK, I’m tending to believe the hullabaloo kicked up regarding who organizes them is intended to distract from emerging news of Israeli gov atrocities.

I’m sure I never did my due diligence while marching to protest UK SUS laws way back when (old), just knew this law was evil & abused to hurt minorities. If I was linking arms with Marxists or criminal elements, I didn’t know or care; I was young, angry, and ready to participate, peacefully, of course.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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It kills me how these last three posts attempt to dictate how people are supposed to voice their protests in an "approved" manner. It's not what they are doing, it's how they do it or concern that they might be wasting their time. No, it's what they are doing that really bothers you.

My God. Look at what is happening to these Palestinian people. I'm glad people are doing something.
That's always been DARVO.
 

Innula Zenovka

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To refer to the Hamas offensive as a pogrom, I feel, is not correct, as I understand the stated operational aim of Hamas was to take Israeli hostages to exchange with the Israeli gov for Palestinians it held, and not mindlessly massacre Jews. As always, open to learning more about this.
Whatever the "stated operational aim" may have been, the attack left some 1,200 Jews, Israeli Arabs and foreign workers dead, and some 3,300 injured. Scaled up for population, that's the equivalent of 44,000 people killed in a single day in the US, or 8,500 in the UK.
 

Lexxi

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My understanding is that Israel's stated objective was to get the hostages back, and to "take out" Hamas. Regardless of whether or not I'm correct or incorrect about the objectives:

There are roughly 2.3 million population in the Gaza strip.
As of May 24 2024:
~75% have been displaced since Israel invaded.
~1.6% have been killed since Israel's invasion (35,800).
Source: United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 231

As of 2022 there were 333.3 million people in USA.
1.56% of that number would be ~5,199,480 people dead.
249,975,000 displaced.

As of 2022 there were 66.97 million people in UK.
1.56% of that number would be ~1,044,732 people dead.
50,227,500 displaced.
Pop source is World Bank.
 
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Ellie

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Meanwhile... Hamas informed the world it launched a rocket attack at Tel Aviv, the capital of Israel, to ensure people don't forget there's a reason why many dislike Hamas and its supporters so much.
Hamas has lost its popularity due to killing innocent civilians? /s

This is horrible, yes, but also a curious situation due to Israeli assurances it had the launch area under tight control, leading to more speculation that Israeli cannot win a mostly guerilla war with Hamas, but then most countries have struggled with that, those that did even attempt it.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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My understanding is that Israel's stated objective was to get the hostages back, and to "take out" Hamas. Regardless of whether or not I'm correct or incorrect about the objectives:

There are roughly 2.3 million population in the Gaza strip.
As of May 24 2024:
~75% have been displaced since Israel invaded.
~1.6% have been killed since Israel's invasion (35,800).
Source: United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 231

As of 2022 there were 333.3 million people in USA.
1.56% of that number would be ~5,199,480 people dead.
249,975,000 displaced.

As of 2022 there were 66.97 million people in UK.
1.56% of that number would be ~1,044,732 people dead.
50,227,500 displaced.
Pop source is World Bank.
You're forgetting one thing: most people in the West and the "civilised" Global North are more inclined to giving Netanyahu leniency, clemency, and the benefit of the doubt, because he looks like them. Palestinians are too... brown to be viewed as full-fledged human beings.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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You're forgetting one thing: most people in the West and the "civilised" Global North are more inclined to giving Netanyahu leniency, clemency, and the benefit of the doubt, because he looks like them. Palestinians are too... brown to be viewed as full-fledged human beings.
Yes. A lot of the most die hard Israel supporters don't view Arabs as human beings and still remember 9/11 a bit too strongly in that regard. ...but the other side of this is I think Hamas sometimes benefits from the racism of lowered expectations.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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Yes. A lot of the most die hard Israel supporters don't view Arabs as human beings and still remember 9/11 a bit too strongly in that regard. ...but the other side of this is I think Hamas sometimes benefits from the racism of lowered expectations.
Let me remind everyone that 9/11 was done by the same guys the USA funded and armed against the USSR in Afghanistan, and many right-wing chickenhawks like Greece's Andreas Andrianopoulos were praising them for being outraged that, under Soviet rule, Afghan women were allowed to do such abhorrent things as going to school, working, going out etc. And let me remind everyone that Netanyahu himself propped up Hamas to delegitimise the moderate, secular Fatah. As many Israeli newspapers wrote post 7/10 about Hamas, boosting Hamas over Fatah blew up in their faces.
 

Innula Zenovka

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You're forgetting one thing: most people in the West and the "civilised" Global North are more inclined to giving Netanyahu leniency, clemency, and the benefit of the doubt, because he looks like them. Palestinians are too... brown to be viewed as full-fledged human beings.
I don't think there's much public sympathy for Netanyahu, at least not in Europe or the UK. Governments, particularly NATO ones, take their lead from the US, who value Israel, along with Saudi, as allies who are regional superpowers with an interest in keeping Iran in order. But even governmental patience with Netanyahu seems to be wearing out, both in the US and (even more so) on this side of the Atlantic.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Let me remind everyone that 9/11 was done by the same guys the USA funded and armed against the USSR in Afghanistan, and many right-wing chickenhawks like Greece's Andreas Andrianopoulos were praising them for being outraged that, under Soviet rule, Afghan women were allowed to do such abhorrent things as going to school, working, going out etc. And let me remind everyone that Netanyahu himself propped up Hamas to delegitimise the moderate, secular Fatah. As many Israeli newspapers wrote post 7/10 about Hamas, boosting Hamas over Fatah blew up in their faces.
Well the USA have a proven track record for training locals which later become terrorists... and let's not forget that in "Rambo III" Rambo fought together with the Mujaheddeen.

 
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Katheryne Helendale

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Sadly, it seems to be. It makes me really fucking angry. I am also pissed at Biden for enabling that war criminal.
And if he voices opposition against Netanyahu, he gets branded an antisemite. The poor guy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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I don't think there's much public sympathy for Netanyahu, at least not in Europe or the UK. Governments, particularly NATO ones, take their lead from the US, who value Israel, along with Saudi, as allies who are regional superpowers with an interest in keeping Iran in order. But even governmental patience with Netanyahu seems to be wearing out, both in the US and (even more so) on this side of the Atlantic.
If there's so little sympathy for Netanyahu, then why's he getting everything he wants and all of his critics are gaslighted or attacked by those who supposedly don't have much sympathy for him?
 

Mona Eberhardt

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Well the USA have a proven track record for training locals which later become terrorists... and let's not forget that in "Rambo III" Rambo fought together with the Mujaheddeen.

The Mujahideen (later rebranded as the Taliban) were also glorified in "The Living Daylights".
 

Innula Zenovka

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If there's so little sympathy for Netanyahu, then why's he getting everything he wants and all of his critics are gaslighted or attacked by those who supposedly don't have much sympathy for him?
I was referring to public sympathy for Israel and Netanyahu, of which there seems to be little in the UK, at least, through this may be different elsewhere, of course.



As to government sympathy, I think the only government whose sympathies matter here is that of the US, who see Israel, along with Saudi Arabia, as important regional allies who help contain Iran, rather as did Iraq under Saddam Hussain until he pushed things too far.
 
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