"Florida Man" is still at it

[danielravennest]

Ever since I first heard of these nuts who believe that the national, state, and local governments have no authority over them, I always wondered how long it would take them to move on from justifying white-collar crimes like tax evasion to just straight up murdering each other and claiming impunity.

There is a thread of logic in the Common Law which can justify such beliefs, if you ignore all practical reality. In the English Common Law, which is the basis for US law, one person cannot bind another to a contract without their permission. The original 13 colonies had elected legislatures, and ratified the US Constitution. So in that case the permission was given by the people to create the United States. But technically they could not bind their heirs or later arrivals who hadn't given consent.

But consent can take many forms. Many people take oaths of citizenship, or office, or service in the military, which explicitly involve consent to the laws of the US. You implicitly consent to our legal system when you sign a tax return (under penalty of perjury), etc. You would be hard-pressed to find someone who hasn't been on government property at some point, such as roads, or availed themselves of some government service. So then it becomes an unfair taking without giving on the part of the "sovereign citizen". If the government has no authority, neither do they have permission to use the government's stuff without paying for it. They should leave.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

There is a thread of logic in the Common Law which can justify such beliefs, if you ignore all practical reality. In the English Common Law, which is the basis for US law, one person cannot bind another to a contract without their permission. The original 13 colonies had elected legislatures, and ratified the US Constitution. So in that case the permission was given by the people to create the United States. But technically they could not bind their heirs or later arrivals who hadn't given consent.

Sure they could, and they did. The authority of the government isn't a "contract" that a person can consent to or not consent to, even in theory. Multiple courts have solidly established this.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Sure they could, and they did. The authority of the government isn't a "contract" that a person can consent to or not consent to, even in theory. Multiple courts have solidly established this.

But what if you haven't consented to the authority of those courts?

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

But what if you haven't consented to the authority of those courts?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

But what if you haven't consented to the authority of those courts?

Under the common law of England and Wales, judges have plenty of ways to make you wish you had.

Seriously, consent doesn't come into it. If you're in the jurisdiction of the English courts, then you don't have any choice in the matter -- what they say, goes. I just don't understand where Sov Cits get the idea from that it's optonal.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

It's no use, Q-Anon is like some huge, mindless, amorphous mass of Lovecraftian madness, all impossible angles and strange geometries, trying slowly to engulf the world.

The way 2020 is going, Q will turn out to be Nyarlathotep (and won't they got a shock when they realise he's Black!).

Hey! I am NOT Q [seriously, I am the crawling chaos - not only has numerous tests told me so, but evidence aplenty in my life!

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

I just don't understand where Sov Cits get the idea from that it's optonal.

It's Jefferson's fault, I think: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Lots more at Consent of the governed - Wikipedia

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It's Jefferson's fault, I think: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Lots more at Consent of the governed - Wikipedia

Yes, but that's the consent of the governed as a whole -- if sufficient people withdraw their consent, then government breaks down.

It doesn't mean it's optional in the sense that joining a club is, for heaven's sake. The only options individuals have, if they don't consent to be governed by a particular regime, is to emigrate or go into exile, if those are possibilities, thus upsetting Stephen Miller no end.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Oh pish, you and your practical reality.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

Yes, but that's the consent of the governed as a whole -- if sufficient people withdraw their consent, then government breaks down.

It doesn't mean it's optional in the sense that joining a club is, for heaven's sake. The only options individuals have, if they don't consent to be governed by a particular regime, is to emigrate or go into exile, if those are possibilities, thus upsetting Stephen Miller no end.

Exactly! When Jefferson says "the governed", he's talking about "the People" - as in, collectively, and not "a person" as in the individual. When Jefferson says that a government derives its power from the consent of the governed, he's alluding to the fact that the people, by collective action, can dispose of a government they no longer like and substitute another.

Of course that collective action CAN be "violent revolution"; but one of the primary functions of the US Constitution is to provide a non-violent means by which the people can replace the government, i.e. voting.

 

[danielravennest]

Sure they could, and they did. The authority of the government isn't a "contract" that a person can consent to or not consent to, even in theory. Multiple courts have solidly established this.

Right, governments are not contracts. They are created and governed by the consent of the people, and can be changed by the people in various ways. That's why I said they are picking one thread of the law and ignoring the rest. The only practical way to ignore the laws of a country are to renounce your citizenship and leave. Since the rest of the world's landmass is mostly controlled by some other country, that leaves you Antarctica and the high seas. You might make a go of it in places where there are very few people, where nobody would bother you.

 

[Soen Eber]

Yes, but that's the consent of the governed as a whole -- if sufficient people withdraw their consent, then government breaks down.

It doesn't mean it's optional in the sense that joining a club is, for heaven's sake. The only options individuals have, if they don't consent to be governed by a particular regime, is to emigrate or go into exile, if those are possibilities, thus upsetting Stephen Miller no end.

The problem is that, outside of dog whistles there is no room for nuance nor subtlety in their mind set. We almost lost the election and did lose the blue wave because of a failure to parse "defund the police" as anything aside from its literal interpretation (as I just posted in the down ballot thread, quoting a Guardian article), even though many agreed with the overall aims.

 

[Rose Karuna]

Wasn't sure where to put this one but Flori-duh Republicans screw with the election process yet again ...

A dark money mystery in the Sunshine State

A dark money mystery in Florida centers on the campaign of a spoiler candidate who helped a Republican win by 32 votes.

www.cnn.com

I did notice several NPA parties on the ballot but I hadn't heard or read anything about them so I just voted for who I'd read about and decided upon.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Wasn't sure where to put this one but Flori-duh Republicans screw with the election process yet again ...

A dark money mystery in the Sunshine State

A dark money mystery in Florida centers on the campaign of a spoiler candidate who helped a Republican win by 32 votes.

www.cnn.com

I did notice several NPA parties on the ballot but I hadn't heard or read anything about them so I just voted for who I'd read about and decided upon.

WTH?

Though he has no known history in politics and did not actively campaign, Alex Rodriguez garnered more than 6,000 votes. When questioned by a Miami TV reporter after the election, Rodriguez lied about his own identity, according to WPLG, a CNN affiliate in South Florida.
Rodriguez was charged with two counts of felony grand theft in 2012, according to court records. He pleaded guilty, though adjudication of the charges was withheld, the documents show.