Fan with sign causes pile-up at Tour de France

GoblinCampFollower

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The Amstel Gold Race and, and, and, that attract hundreds of thousands visitors every day, are only possible if everybody uses their common sense. If that stops, it is the end of professional road cycling.
Yeah.... all it takes is a little bit of excitement for the race and common sense goes right down the tubes for many people.
 

Sid

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They should ban signs and let it be widely known so if anyone has one the people around them will tell them to get rid of it.
It is not the signs, at the moment it is the smartphones. Pictures or it did not happen (selfies) has become a thing.
Even photos of ones dinner are shared these days on Whatsapp and social media. Not that a single soul cares what one eats. But my kingdom for an extra like.

And how on earth will an organization check 100+ miles of public roads. And as democracies tend to have: freedom of speech. And that's exactly what a sign is.
 
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Sid

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Yeah.... all it takes is a little bit of excitement for the race and common sense goes right down the tubes for many people.
But still almost everybody along the trail has no bad intentions in mind.
And given the fact how many people are watching every day along the stages, big accidents are thankfully seldom caused by the spectators.

The cyclists have choices too in how they deal with the road in crowded, narrow parts.
More than 99% of the injuries during a race happen because the cyclists drive to close together in the peloton, use the complete width of the road and get in trouble when it narrows for some reason (most of the time not because of the spectators), or because of an unexpected road obstacle or simply because not paying attention enough.

Mountain stages always have a bit of a risk, mostly down hill, because of the enormous speeds (90-100 km\hour) some produce and many are willing to take the risks on sometimes tricky curvy roads.
 
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WolfEyes

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I can see banning large signs like the one that caused the crash. I don't think small signs like the ones that show support for a racer should be though.

They need to set up certain areas where spectators can be safely instead of spread out along the track. Like they did in the earlier years of the Grand Prix. Temporary stands can be put up. Contain the people in given areas and you have better crowd control.





Temporary Spectator stands

All other crashes were due to road conditions. That falls on the organizers.
 
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Noodles

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Smartphones are really a problem.
People have so much self importance these days. They MUST have themselves on picture while the cyclists pass by.
They don't come to the Tour to see it, (which is quite boring to be honest the peloton has passed your spot in seconds), but to show themselves there. Collecting bragging rights.

At least half of the spectators watches the tour through their smartphone camera these days.
And overcrowded mountain roads are still a problem too.
I see this style of complaint, and some people can get to be too much, but I have photos and videos of events I have been to that I am really glad I have. The easiest example is concerts. I don't remeber anything about seeing Aerosmith years ago. But even the mediocre pics I have from Toby Kieth in the nosebleed seats, at a show I didn't even want to be at, are enoigh to jog some memory of being there. And I have videos from more recent shows, which are great and I like to watch.

Though I also try to do a bit and be done, not just, do it obnoxiously the whole time.
 
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Sid

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I can see banning large signs like the one that caused the crash. I don't think small signs like the ones that show support for a racer should be though.

They need to set up certain areas where spectators can be safely instead of spread out along the track. Like they did in the earlier years of the Grand Prix. Temporary stands can be put up. Contain the people in given areas and you have better crowd control.





Temporary Spectator stands

All other crashes were due to road conditions. That falls on the organizers.
It is the length of the stages (100+ miles) and day after day a different one.
Building stands is just not possible, just like securing the course with crush barriers along the whole stage.
Road conditions can't be controlled 100% either.



I think people on the other side of the pond in general underestimate what it takes to organize a road cycling course like the Tour De France.
There is so much to consider:

- 21 stages in 23 days: 3404 km (2115 miles) Estimated number of spectators along the route in total 12,000,000

- It is the third largest TV sports event in the world, right after the FIFA football world championships and the Summer Olympics.

- Towns where a stage starts and finishes pay good money fo be the starting point or the finish. So the organization has to find a suitable as safe as possible route from start to finish for every day.
Rotterdam was the city for the Grand Départ a few years ago. (first stage in the Tour: extra festive) all in all the city payed more than 10 million euro in total (including police, cleaning of the city afterwards, building temporary facilities etc etc and and and). Plus the costs that have to be payed to the organization.
Utrecht was the city for the Grand Départ in 2015: 1 million visitors in three days.

- 4500 people work for the Tour organization.

- 24.000 police men and women work a day or more for the Tour in total

- 1550 hotel beds needed every day (the organization pays for them) 20 times in different places

- 10 doctors and 5 nurses are available during the stages

- A few hours ahead of the cyclists there drives an advertising parade with 150 cars along the complete stage every day.

- 2000 journalists follow the course either on a motor, in a car or at the finish, or somewhere along the stage every day.

- 100 television stations cover the tour every day, a lot of them live from start to finish. Lots of them have reporters and technicians at the finish every day. That means at least 100 lorries around the finish. For instance the Dutch NOS covers all stages. Two commentators in the studio in NL, two reporters for interviews right after the stage in the finish zone with an own camera crew, a reporter on a motor in the stage for extra information. And in the evening there is a live talk show every evening near the finish place. And that is Dutch TV alone.
- French TV that produce the live footage has 4 motors with a cameraman in course, two helicopters in the air.
That whole circus has to be pulled down after the finish and ceremonies, transported to the next days finish and build up again. Imagine they had to do that with temporary stands along the stage as well every day.

- There are 22 teams with each 9 riders. Each team has their own bus/coach, cars, vans, chefs, medical staff, physiotherapists, mechanics, volunteers along the stage to provide drink and food for the cyclists. In total the teams transport 1,400 bikes during the Tour, 3000 wheels and 4,800 tyres. 22 complete bike workshops on wheels have to be transported and set up at the next hotel every day. Every used bike is totally overhauled during the night by the mechanics.

- And then there is the uncountable number of volunteers in each city, town and hamlet where the tour passes that make sure that no cars are parked on the track, brushing the track so that there are no stones or other debris on it, that all the needed signs are in place, that the most dangerous obstacles in the middle of the road are covered with hay bales, that no other traffic can enter the stage. Every intersection and crossing needs at least 2 volunteers and some a police officer as well. Every dangerous obstacle on the road needs a volunteer with a flag and a whistle to warn the cyclists.

And the list goes on and on. I only scratched the surface in my wall of text. :)

Organizing Wimbledon or Roland Garros is easy peasy compared to the Tour, Vuelta or Giro D' Italia.
 
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WolfEyes

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I've been an organizer of fairly large events (statewide and national, think ABATE) so I do have a pretty good idea of what it entails. My father raced with family members as his pit crew, so I am more than aware of safety issues with racing and crowd control. My statements still stand. I stand by them.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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The TdF organizers do manage to put up a substantial crowd control and barricade facility around the beginning and end of each stage, and along the track perhaps a half mile or so from each of those points. Beyond that there's usually some small moveable barricades or at the very least some poles with string or rope for a mile or two and the crowd tends to stay behind them right up until the moment when the riders arrive, when they often move or climb over the barricades to do their dickery. And the crowds at these parts of the course aren't even a fraction of the size of the crowds that gather in the heavily-barricaded portions, but they're still more than police can really handle, especially since they don't start acting up until the riders are right there and police can't easily just run in and do something because that would disrupt the race even more than the spectators do on their own.

Races held in stadiums are easy, they can have races two thousand miles long but keep them physically all wrapped around this one spot which is easy to secure. I honestly don't think there's any way that anyone could put up enough solid barricades and enough police to work them to keep all like 120 miles or so of a Tour de France one-day stage as secure as they can keep the first and last mile. Hundreds and hundreds of miles of country and mountain roads and town streets - there's no way. There's going to be some gaps in the fence, and sadly people who are devoted to being dickheads are going to go to wherever the gaps are. I think the best anyone can hope for is identifying people who actually cause trouble and punishing them after the fact.

The only alternative I could imagine is taking the Tour off the roads of France and having it in a stadium, or maybe on the roads just in a loop around like one single town, where it might be physically possible to barricade the entire race course. But then it's not a tour anymore.
 

Sid

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The only alternative I could imagine is taking the Tour off the roads of France and having it in a stadium, or maybe on the roads just in a loop around like one single town, where it might be physically possible to barricade the entire race course. But then it's not a tour anymore.
That will never happen. That is so not road cycling.
THE essential part is the diversity of the stages. Flat stages for sprinters (green jersey), hillside stages for cyclists that are specialized in long escapes, mountain stages for the cyclists that participate to win the overall tour victory (Yellow jersey) and the ones for the mountain price (polka dot jersey). There is always at least one shorter stage for an individual time trail (this year maybe decisive for the yellow jersey).
It is the total mix of daily different scenery, with nice historical cities, castles,monasteries etc., great nature scenes and thousands of enthusiastic supporters along the route.
It is the combination of all the above that makes courses like the TdF interesting for TV and sponsors.
Otherwise the course could be organized in a gym on home trainers.

Loops in a single town are in fact very boring. We have them after the tour. But those are more to see the heroes from the Tour in your own town.
Beer, fries and burgers are the main ingredients that pay for those kind of races. Those loops are secured on broad streets and no more than 30 to 40 cyclists are involved. The races are fixed and have only entertainment value. I can already predict who is going to win these type of courses this year in my provence Limburg after the TdF.

Road cycling is not unsafe. There are many many more road courses in a year, but the TdF is by far the biggest of them all and gets much more attention than any other course.
Over 99% of the crashes in a course are not spectator related. Mostly all are faults from one of the cyclists not paying enough attention or making a mistake. Sometimes it is the weather like mist or rain.
All cyclists know their sport has some risks, just like every other sport, a percentage gets injured during a season.
And just like in motor and car races and other sports every now and then an accident can be fatal.
 
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WolfEyes

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Over 99% of the crashes in a course are not spectator related.
Then why advocate for the removal of all spectators, as you appear to be doing? You object to temporary removable, preconstructed seating like what was in the link in my post as if there was something wrong with doing what every other massive racing event does.

Here lately it seems as if you object to everything I put out there and I'm not understanding why you are doing this. Basically, you keep telling me I am wrong when I know without any doubt I am not wrong. Not being 100% correct doesn't make it 100% wrong.

Have I done something to offend you? What's going on?
 

Sid

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I'm totally against removing all spectators. They are part of every cycling course.

This year one of the stages had the finish up hill on the Puy de Dôme, an old vulcano, that was the scene of many heroic stages in the past. But nowadays that mountain is a protected ecosystem. So the TdF never went there since 1988.
This year the TdF director (who sees that mountain every morning from his bedroom window when he is at home) managed to get permission to let the cyclist climb the mountain once more.... but no spectators allowed, only a minimum of journalists etc at the finish.
It was so surrealistic to see the cyclists go uphill in almost total silence. That is not the direction road cycling should go IMHO.
It was the same as football matches without spectators during the corona lockdowns. Games in empty stadiums simply don't have the same impact as the ones in sold out stadiums. Sports need live audiences IMHO.

The modern day smartphone use is a relative new problem. I don't see an easy fix for it. Road cycling will have to live with that somehow. Maybe the cycling teams have to adapt their tactics during the race at times.

And today: The maybe decisive individual time trail during this edition of the TdF. The best stage to take pictures from the individual cyclists in action. Fingers crossed.
 
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WolfEyes

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It's not at all helpful when people ignore questions like "have I offended you". Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse. I don't enjoy how it feels.
 
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Sid

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Find someone else Wolfie, if you feel the need to argue.
I was discussing/explaining cycling in general.
You were one of the people who chased me away over there, why not as well over here.

Time for summer recess.
No need to reply, I will not read it.
 
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Soen Eber

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Alright, I'm really tired and about to crash, and I don't understand what is going on here. The only thing I do understand is Sid did not respond to Wolfeye's question of "did I offend you" and his ignoring that rather confuses me.

Both, please, have a beer and take a nap,
 
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WolfEyes

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I don't even know wtf Sid is talking about when he says I ran him off the other forum and now I'm trying to run him off VVO. Something is off about this. Why would I want to run off someone I like? I thought we had been getting along quite well for a long time there and then this out of the blue. I'm confused, too. I'm not going to worry about it though. I'm done chasing after people to apologize for doing/saying things I haven't done/said just to keep the peace.
 
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Sid

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I don't expect you to apologize.
You asked why I ignored your question. I gave you my answer because you insisted.