Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

Kara Spengler

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I'm sorry Kara Spangler, I don't understand the relevance of the David Bowie song to my post. Please explain? Thank You.
Major Tom seems to be about someone in an altered state of consciousness. Williamson seems to give the same impression.
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Major Tom seems to be about someone in an altered state of consciousness. Williamson seems to give the same impression.
I can understand that. Thanks for the clarification.

Given what Williamson is doing for Gravel and his anti-war message, I wonder if David Bowie would want his music used to bully her or encourage her? Now, that's an interesting thing to ponder.
 
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Brenda Archer

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I can understand that. Thanks for the clarification.

Given what Williamson is doing for Gravel and his anti-war message, I wonder if David Bowie would want his music used to bully her or encourage her? Now, that's an interesting thing to ponder.
Not really.

Williamson doesn’t seem to have any problems grifting off the backs of HIV patients and the other sick and disabled people she’s blamed for their own ailments over the years. I don’t know much about Gravel, but Williamson seems like a narcissistic user.
 

Kara Spengler

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Not really.

Williamson doesn’t seem to have any problems grifting off the backs of HIV patients and the other sick and disabled people she’s blamed for their own ailments over the years. I don’t know much about Gravel, but Williamson seems like a narcissistic user.
One of the few things I know about her is she is an anti-vaxer. Which helps her "all around loon" bonafides unfortunately.
 

Kara Spengler

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I honestly can't believe that those who call themselves Democrats have become so lost that they can't recognize a selfless act in the name of peace.
It has to start somewhere. I guess it won't be with you.
It is certainly not starting with her. (edit: BTW, I do not call myself a Democrat and the only reason my registration says otherwise is I like having a say in local matters. I would never completely align myself with a party that far to the right, although I usually compromise to agree with them because the other major party is batshit insane most of the time.)
 

Innula Zenovka

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I honestly can't believe that those who call themselves Democrats have become so lost that they can't recognize a selfless act in the name of peace.
It has to start somewhere. I guess it won't be with you.
Sorry, but as a Brit I'm having difficulty keeping up with the references. What "selfless act in the name of peace," and by whom, do you say is going unrecognised?
 

Eunoli

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Sorry, but as a Brit I'm having difficulty keeping up with the references. What "selfless act in the name of peace," and by whom, do you say is going unrecognised?
I think what is being said here is that we should stop supporting whatever candidates we support and switch to the one without a chance in hell of winning - and who also makes her living by saying hateful and dangerous things with love in her voice - because she supported someone else's position that we should have a cabinet level "Department of Peace" - but in truth, its just a shift to get us to stop supporting those with a chance so that Trump can win again.

At least that's what I got out of it.
 

Sid

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It is easier to just ignore or use the scroll wheel on the mouse, than to try to figure out what a guy with a pig avatar (who obviously wants to troll) is dabbling about .
Hey Jimmy, E- so far.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I think what is being said here is that we should stop supporting whatever candidates we support and switch to the one without a chance in hell of winning - and who also makes her living by saying hateful and dangerous things with love in her voice - because she supported someone else's position that we should have a cabinet level "Department of Peace" - but in truth, its just a shift to get us to stop supporting those with a chance so that Trump can win again.

At least that's what I got out of it.
A Department of Peace? Is that like the Ministry of Peace in 1984?
 

Anya Ristow

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I think what is being said here is that we should stop supporting whatever candidates we support and switch to the one without a chance in hell of winning - and who also makes her living by saying hateful and dangerous things with love in her voice - because she supported someone else's position that we should have a cabinet level "Department of Peace" - but in truth, its just a shift to get us to stop supporting those with a chance so that Trump can win again.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Holy Hyperbole, Batman. Getting Mike Gravel on the debate stage isn't a secret plan to promote anti-vaxxers or to elect Trump, it's about getting someone willing to be a proponent for peace into the discourse.

He's just 7000 5000 1400 $1 donations short of his goal, BTW.
 
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Anya Ristow

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...it's about getting someone willing to be a proponent for peace into the discourse.
For the Brits in the audience, it's come to be seen as unpatriotic in the USA to not be a warmonger, so even the most anti-war of the candidates (Tulsi Gabbard) needs to moderate what she says about war, is constantly answering "gotcha" questions, and is smeared by the press. Mike Gravel, post-career and nearing the end of his life, is more willing than anyone to challenge the madness of our war state, and some of us just want to let him do that.
 

Katheryne Helendale

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I have nothing against Mike Gravel, and if getting him on the debate stage opens dialog about war abstinence, that would be great. I just don't think, as a candidate, he would stand a ghost of a chance against Trump. Williamson's motives, on the other hand, are highly suspect.
 

Han Held

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Crazy ass victim-blaming new age kooks, peacemongering buttery male peddling pig trolls, and bad faith abounding

...this thread's certainly gone off the rails, that's for sure.



We should be careful following Major Tom's example; wouldn't want to end up like him:
 

Kara Spengler

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For the Brits in the audience, it's come to be seen as unpatriotic in the USA to not be a warmonger, so even the most anti-war of the candidates (Tulsi Gabbard) needs to moderate what she says about war, is constantly answering "gotcha" questions, and is smeared by the press. Mike Gravel, post-career and nearing the end of his life, is more willing than anyone to challenge the madness of our war state, and some of us just want to let him do that.
<< proud nonpatriot by that definition
 
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Innula Zenovka

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For the Brits in the audience, it's come to be seen as unpatriotic in the USA to not be a warmonger, so even the most anti-war of the candidates (Tulsi Gabbard) needs to moderate what she says about war, is constantly answering "gotcha" questions, and is smeared by the press. Mike Gravel, post-career and nearing the end of his life, is more willing than anyone to challenge the madness of our war state, and some of us just want to let him do that.
Just to repeat a point with which I know you disagree but I still think it's worth making -- questioning the strategic wisdom of extricating yourself from a war at a given moment isn't the same as opposing entry to it in the first place.

It has always, I think, to be a question of "what happens if we do this, and what happens if we don't?", and the question is very different depending on whether "this" is "get involved in this particular war with the domestic and international situation as it was at the time" or "leave this particular war with the domestic and international situation as it is now".
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Just to repeat a point with which I know you disagree but I still think it's worth making -- questioning the strategic wisdom of extricating yourself from a war at a given moment isn't the same as opposing entry to it in the first place.

It has always, I think, to be a question of "what happens if we do this, and what happens if we don't?", and the question is very different depending on whether "this" is "get involved in this particular war with the domestic and international situation as it was at the time" or "leave this particular war with the domestic and international situation as it is now".
In the 21st century, the US has inserted it's military into Libya, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Uganda, Somalia, Northeastern Kenya, Pakistan, and our war in Afghanistan is old enough to be starting college soon. Does the world really need Trump at the helm ? We have lost the ability to assure the world that we are not going to put a sociopath in charge of this mess and maybe even double down on keeping him. That's probably another question we should consider when we decide if we should stay or go.
 

Innula Zenovka

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In the 21st century, the US has inserted it's military into Libya, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Uganda, Somalia, Northeastern Kenya, Pakistan, and our war in Afghanistan is old enough to be starting college soon. Does the world really need Trump at the helm ? We have lost the ability to assure the world that we are not going to put a sociopath in charge of this mess and maybe even double down on keeping him. That's probably another question we should consider when we decide if we should stay or go.
Oh certainly, and the fact that Trump is spectacularly ill-suited for the role of C-i-C of US forces should be sufficient to dissuade people from voting for him, though obviously it isn't enough, unfortunately, any more than the incompetence and lack of ability that he brings to almost every other aspect of the job, other than signing stuff for the cameras when he's reminded to, seems to worry them.

However, the question of whether a particular candidate is a good C-i-C or not is completely separate from whether it's advisable for the US to withdraw from any particular military conflict in which it's currently engaged, though that candidate's ability, if elected, to deliver a more or less successful withdrawal is another matter that needs consideration.

I'm guided in my thoughts about this by my country's experience of extracting itself from various colonial and post-colonial conflicts. While, as far as I'm concerned, the difficulties we experienced over the last 100 or so years should be sufficient to dissuade people from over-hasty action (as should the experiences of Korea and Vietnam still serve as a warning to Americans about getting involved in such wars), Britain's experience in NI demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's a lot easier to send troops in somewhere to prevent bad things happening than it is later to withdraw them without even worse things happening as a result.

Rudyard Kipling, for all the casual racism inherent in the imperial outlook, knew a thing or two about the complexities of colonial administration, and one of his more (in)famous poems on the subject, which is often misleading referred to by only its half title, is worth re-reading by both the politicians and citizens of the nation to which it was addressed: The White Man's Burden — The United States and the Philippine Islands.
 
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