Democratic Party Debates

Aeon Jiminy

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This conversation is very healing, especially for us Sanders supporters who voted for Jill Stein in 2016. We managed to make the "sexism" transition without a hitch.Their refusal to accept corporate money and their progressive policies that were considered "crazy" only a few years ago, are now being lauded and adopted by many of the top Democratic candidates today. Stein supporters received such backlash, especially from Democrats. Jill supported Bernie. Warren, who has co-opted Sanders rhetoric after ditching him in 2016, supported Clinton. It makes you wanna ask, "Will the real sexists please stand up?". But sometimes it's better to just follow the herd and not ask too many questions. Wouldn't wanna be crazy.
 

Beebo Brink

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I think you're heavily mischaracterizing my position and we are not going to get anywhere.
I get that you're freaked at the thought of Trump winning a 2nd term. I am, too. Really, every bit as much as you are. I agree that sexism will be used against Warren and/or Harris, but it's just one arrow in the GOP quiver and I think you're over-exaggerating the impact of that one factor compared to all the others in play. It also has the very real possibility of backfiring on them with moderate GOP women.

Women, especially black woman, are the spine of the Democratic Party. If we have a male candidate, such as Biden, we stand to lose more from his tone-deaf old white guy gaffes than we gain by having a male candidate that the GOP won't bash for being male. Appeasing the GOP's misogyny is not going to get you votes that were never coming our way.

Despite the entrenched racism in this country, OBAMA WON, and he won because he had an electrifying presence and inspirational messages. Despite the entrenched sexism in this country, it is still possible for the right woman to win too. I think it's short-sighted, and possibly politically suicidal, to decide that a woman can't win and then choose a male candidate solely because he's male and you think that somehow that will give him more of an edge.
 

Kara Spengler

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Lmao. Don't even get me started on Stein. Now THAT could be a rant. I'll refrain.
She looked sort of sane before 2016. In fact I voted for her in 2012 .... the odds of Obama losing DC were less than any random Dem doing so (which are already zero) so it was really a support of having a third party, which wants to get to 5% in the national popular vote. Okay, the first Finnish-American running mate with her that year probably helped, but in general I believe there should be a viable third party. Stein in 2016 though? No, just no, she personally had jumped the shark and the Greens should have ran someone else.
 

Kara Spengler

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I get that you're freaked at the thought of Trump winning a 2nd term. I am, too. Really, every bit as much as you are. I agree that sexism will be used against Warren and/or Harris, but it's just one arrow in the GOP quiver and I think you're over-exaggerating the impact of that one factor compared to all the others in play. It also has the very real possibility of backfiring on them with moderate GOP women.

Women, especially black woman, are the spine of the Democratic Party. If we have a male candidate, such as Biden, we stand to lose more from his tone-deaf old white guy gaffes than we gain by having a male candidate that the GOP won't bash for being male. Appeasing the GOP's misogyny is not going to get you votes that were never coming our way.

Despite the entrenched racism in this country, OBAMA WON, and he won because he had an electrifying presence and inspirational messages. Despite the entrenched sexism in this country, it is still possible for the right woman to win too. I think it's short-sighted, and possibly politically suicidal, to decide that a woman can't win and then choose a male candidate solely because he's male and you think that somehow that will give him more of an edge.
Exactly, no matter who the Dems run donnieco will throw something at them. I would actually prefer the thing screaming at them to be used is misogyny as it could backfire spectacularly. Even if they know to avoid that trap it will blind them to other attacks. It could not just hurt them with indies, but with their own base.
 

Jolene Benoir

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I get that you're freaked at the thought of Trump winning a 2nd term. I am, too. Really, every bit as much as you are. I agree that sexism will be used against Warren and/or Harris, but it's just one arrow in the GOP quiver and I think you're over-exaggerating the impact of that one factor compared to all the others in play. It also has the very real possibility of backfiring on them with moderate GOP women.

Women, especially black woman, are the spine of the Democratic Party. If we have a male candidate, such as Biden, we stand to lose more from his tone-deaf old white guy gaffes than we gain by having a male candidate that the GOP won't bash for being male. Appeasing the GOP's misogyny is not going to get you votes that were never coming our way.

Despite the entrenched racism in this country, OBAMA WON, and he won because he had an electrifying presence and inspirational messages. Despite the entrenched sexism in this country, it is still possible for the right woman to win too. I think it's short-sighted, and possibly politically suicidal, to decide that a woman can't win and then choose a male candidate solely because he's male and you think that somehow that will give him more of an edge.
We agree that a male candidate should not be run just because some think only a man can win. That's not me. I very much WANT a woman, in particular Warren and/or Harris.

As I said, I'm just saying my fears out loud. Do I believe my fears should dictate policy? Hell, no.
 

Katheryne Helendale

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This conversation is very healing, especially for us Sanders supporters who voted for Jill Stein in 2016.
Okay, just stop right there. So, basically, because your candidate didn't win the primary, you decided to vote for a third party candidate who had no chance of winning and thus handing the victory to Trump??? Look, I get voting your conscience, but the time to do that is NOT when there's an overgrown incompetent orange baboon with a strong voting base running for the other side! I didn't like Hillary either,but despite her flaws, she was infinitely more qualified to run the country than Trump will ever be!

Okay, now I'm starting to rant!
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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Okay, just stop right there. So, basically, because your candidate didn't win the primary, you decided to vote for a third party candidate who had no chance of winning and thus handing the victory to Trump??? Look, I get voting your conscience, but the time to do that is NOT when there's an overgrown incompetent orange baboon with a strong voting base running for the other side! I didn't like Hillary either,but despite her flaws, she was infinitely more qualified to run the country than Trump will ever be!

Okay, now I'm starting to rant!
Oh come now, what are the lives of a few extra brown foreigners, a supreme court that upholds gerrymandering, and women getting charged with homicide offences for getting shot in the face of sticking to one's principles?

eta: And who can forget the increased threat of nuclear conflict? :)
 

Eunoli

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Despite the entrenched racism in this country, OBAMA WON, and he won because he had an electrifying presence and inspirational messages. Despite the entrenched sexism in this country, it is still possible for the right woman to win too. I think it's short-sighted, and possibly politically suicidal, to decide that a woman can't win and then choose a male candidate solely because he's male and you think that somehow that will give him more of an edge.
You are both right and wrong. Obama didn't face aggressive interference by a foreign power for the other side at the level that we will this cycle. There was a wonderful, sweeping optimism that followed him everywhere he went that year. He brought us with him to that goal. I think he is one of the most successful politicians of our age.

We face something different now. Both sides are motivated by hate and fear. The center feels abandoned by both parties - and yet is still a giant percentage of the electorate. I frankly don't see anyone in the pack right now that I am confident can win against Trump once the real "fake news" begins. I don't think they will crush him in debates - because I really don't see him agreeing to debate anyone. This is going to be their constantly bashed image against this vile man who will be immune to truth and news with a giant portion of the country.

I don't think a woman can't win. I think women will face a far steeper hill to climb than men this cycle. We are a misogynist country in many parts. We still look at a forceful woman and say "bitch" and the same in a man and say "leader". We still judge women in politics as much by their appearance as what they say. Can you imagine if we did that with the men?

We need something more than tough and more than smart. We need someone with a message that can give us hope again and get us out to save our country from this shame. And then we need to keep our fingers crossed that the Russians aren't as smart as the fifteen year old girl who hacked the Florida election machines, because that's pretty much our only chance since the Senate refuses to pass any legislation to protect the election.

Happy fourth, everyone. Enjoy democracy while we have it.
 

Shiloh Lyric

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Trump has already attacked Biden, trying to imply he's too 'sick' and 'weak' to effectively govern. So, the lies about Hillary's health during the 2016 campaign don't just have to do with misogyny.

As far as whether a woman can win against Trump...haven't you been paying attention? Trump is TERRIFIED of strong women he can't grope or insult. What can he say about Elizabeth Warrnen? He's already attacked the "Pocahontas" thing, and no matter what the silly Stein voter says, people have let that go. And if Native Americans would rather vote for Trump than Warren, if they truly feel Trump is better for THEM, then power to them. Do you really see that happening, though? And outside of Trump's base, no one else really cares. Trump's base is gonna be Trump's base, no matter who he shoots in the middle of 5th Avenue. Period, full stop.

And Kamala Harris. What will he attack her with? You notice he's already stayed pretty much away from her. The only problematic thing about her is some of her policies as a prosecutor. But, again, IF she wins the nomination, do you REALLY think people, outside of Trump's loyal base again, will say "Oh, she was too hard, so I'll vote for the dude who's already proved himself a madman". (okay, so I'm simplifying, but at it's core, am I really?) They're trying the "she's not really a black woman", but I'm not sure how effective that will be. She's a woman of color, and the fact her ancestors came from India and Jamaica, rather than directly from Africa, isn't that huge of a distinction when it comes to race in America, outside of a right-wing bubble. And even they don't really care. Anything darker than pasty white is all the same to them.

I think a strong female candidate will send Trump reeling. His base already has all of the misogynists and if the (mostly Russian backed) Bernie bros, like dude posting on this thread, want to contribute to that, we'll just be louder.

My God. Don't give up already. Trump is an evil dude, but he's still just a weak-minded man, and like most misogynists, he's scared to death of strong, smart, confident women. I think a woman CAN win.
 
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Shiloh Lyric

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Warren, who has co-opted Sanders rhetoric after ditching him in 2016, supported Clinton. It makes you wanna ask, "Will the real sexists please stand up?". But sometimes it's better to just follow the herd and not ask too many questions. Wouldn't wanna be crazy.
You're funny. Warren pretty much created the Consumer Protection Bureau. That's pretty progressive. She has smart, detailed plans for a variety of issues, ones that Bernie doesn't even touch. I liked Bernie in the primaries in 2016, but I'm really tired of his yelling and finger-waving. What did he accomplish after all his years in the Senate? He's not a real Democrat, and I glossed over that in 2016, but then he bad-mouthed Democrats, again, after the election. He whines that the nomination was stolen, but it wasn't. The DNC didn't "take" anything from Bernie. Bernie's fatal mistake was not reaching out enough to women and people of color. And while his main issues DO impact those groups more than privileged white dudes, he never broke that down in understandable, relatable ways. Elizabeth Warren, on the other hand, DOES. And people respond. Bernie should learn.

But, ultimately, you know, him, you and other Bernie Bros/Stein groupies are a good part of the reason we got Trump. Did you read the Mueller report? I bet not. There's stuff in there about Russian influence/propaganda and the Bernie and Jill Stein campaigns. You people fell into it just as much as the Trump supporters did. So, yay for you. You all will have your place in history, too. Just glad it's not the same place I'll be.
 

Beebo Brink

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Bernie's fatal mistake was not reaching out enough to women and people of color. And while his main issues DO impact those groups more than privileged white dudes, he never broke that down in understandable, relatable ways.
:qft:
The longer Sanders' campaign has gone on, the more disappointed I am in his inability to learn and to grow. He's a one-issue candidate and it's an important issue, a vital issue, but there's so much more to being president than grappling with income-inequality. Sanders is convinced that a rising sea raises all ships, and hasn't shown any deep awareness of the institutional inequalities that are designed specifically to keep minorities down.

Conversely, Warren hasn't lost her passion for battling the uneven playing field -- a battle she's carried on for decades -- but I can see her vision spreading. She has the capacity to address a wide-range of issues facing our country.

I like Harris' spirit, but she can't match Warren's "I've got a plan for that" approach.

And Buttigieg, who is my next favorite, has the very same problem as Bernie -- no credible history of working with minorities, because you just don't get that many opportunities as mayor of South Bend, Indiana. His record there has been mixed, including the recent police shooting incident. Unlike Bernie, I think Buttigieg can learn and grow, but he's just not there yet.
 

Aeon Jiminy

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But, ultimately, you know, him, you and other Bernie Bros/Stein groupies are a good part of the reason we got Trump. Did you read the Mueller report? I bet not. There's stuff in there about Russian influence/propaganda and the Bernie and Jill Stein campaigns. You people fell into it just as much as the Trump supporters did. So, yay for you. You all will have your place in history, too. Just glad it's not the same place I'll be.
You know, I don't need to call you derogatory names to reconcile with my conscience. Bernie Bro.? Seriously? I voted for a woman! It's pretty amazing how well-informed you think you are. As for history, the feeling is completely mutual.
 
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Shiloh Lyric

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You know, I don't need to call you derogatory names to reconcile with my conscience. Bernie Bro.? Seriously? I voted for a woman! It's pretty amazing how well-informed you think you are. As for history, the feeling is completely mutual.
Blah, blah, blah.

You voted for a woman. Yet, a woman can't beat Trump? Jill Stein was propped up by Putin. I briefly believed her, too, before I researched her more. (I've leanred my lesson. I research FIRST now) Donated to her 'recount' efforts. LOL!!! What a joke that was.

So, here's your pat on the back for voting for a woman. Do you care to address anything else I said about Bernie or Elizabeth Warren?

Oh, and, pumpkin? I'll take MY spot in history over your's any day. I'M not the one who fell for Putin's tactics.
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Look, I get voting your conscience, but the time to do that is NOT when ...
For the last 40 years, the Democratic Party has become the party of "let's save our conscience for another day ". I just couldn't give any more absolution to things like Syrian no-fly zones, tinkering with WW3, reconciling that our allies are funding our enemies, using the State Dept for personal fund-raising, and playing games with Top Secret National Security information, ... just to name a few.

At some point, the majority of Americans are going to have to draw a line in the sand and stick to it. If WW3, treason, and felonious behavior isn't that line, my God, tell me what is?
 

GoblinCampFollower

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For the last 40 years, the Democratic Party has become the party of "let's save our conscience for another day ". I just couldn't give any more absolution to things like Syrian no-fly zones, tinkering with WW3, reconciling that our allies are funding our enemies, using the State Dept for personal fund-raising, and playing games with Top Secret National Security information, ... just to name a few.

At some point, the majority of Americans are going to have to draw a line in the sand and stick to it. If WW3, treason, and felonious behavior isn't that line, my God, tell me what is?
On that note, there was someone on NPR the other day who made a good point. Over the last 60 or so years, Democrats have actually been a lot more successful fielding young, charismatic outsiders like JFK, Bill Clinton and Obama than old, "safe" insiders like John Kerry or Hilary.

I think this is because we have so many voters in our base who need to feel moved to get out there and campaign and vote. I think it also looks really, REALLY bad to centrists when democrats are fielding a candidate that we obviously aren't even that keen on.