Covid-19 vaccine thread

Innula Zenovka

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It's maybe worth noting that the risk of blood clots from the AstraZeneca vaccine, certainly, and I would imagine the J&J one too, is pretty remote -- considerably lower the the risk of blood clots from taking oral contraceptives -- while the risk of all manner of adverse outcomes, including blood clots, from not being vaccinated is considerably higher.
Finally, it’s important to note that COVID-19 itself has been reported to lead to thrombocytopenia in up to 41% of positive patients, with the figure rising to up to 95% in those with severe disease. There are many reports of small blood clots in multiple organs in COVID-19 patients causing organ damage, failure and death.
 

Romana

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It's maybe worth noting that the risk of blood clots from the AstraZeneca vaccine, certainly, and I would imagine the J&J one too, is pretty remote -- considerably lower the the risk of blood clots from taking oral contraceptives -- while the risk of all manner of adverse outcomes, including blood clots, from not being vaccinated is considerably higher.


I've seen that brought up a few times. As well as "both-sides-ing" to make it sound like the mRNA vaccines are "just as bad".
Twitter should pin the CDC and White House tweets on the subject on the top of related trends.
Even Facebook slaps "get the right info on vaccines here " links on people's posts about them.
That way the narrative stands a chance of being less driven by armchair pundits, etc.
 
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Zaida Gearbox

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Actually I can say with a certain level of confidence that the problems with the J&J vaccine are being under reported. You all have to excuse my typing. We got the J&J vaccine day before Easter. Hub - no problems. I had all the usual problems of hives, fever, etc - that was why I wanted the vaccine when I had a day or 2 off after. For the rest of the week I was normal except for periodic extreme fatique and difficult concentrating. Saturday I broke out in hives again and started to not feel good. Hives went away after a few hours. Sunday I felt sick all day. Around dinner time I took snape out and started to feel really bad. Came in and took Tylenol, but headache got worse. Then, the right side of my mouth started to feel like I was going to get hives again - but then numness spread over all right side of face. I told Hub - take me to ER. I can remember Hub putting me in a wheel chair, taking me in, and leaving to park the car. Next thing I remember I was in the CT room and one of the orderlies accidently pulled my hair.

So until this morning I was in the hospital getting loads of tests and doctors kept trying to say, "Oh the vaccine couldn't have caused this - the vaccine is safe.... It can't be a TIA - it's just stress because you know stress makes one side of your face droop..." Then, this morning the nurses were talking in my room and one of them said, "She got the J&J vaccine about a week ago. They're pretty sure that caused tiis, but you know..." They didn't realize I was awake and I asked, "You know - what?" So, they told me they are under pressure to not report problems with the vaccine because they don't want people to be afraid to get it. So, when I was released and went to the pharmacy - I told my story to the pharmacist - and she called and reported it.

And I still feel like shit but much much much better than when I went to the hospital.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Actually I can say with a certain level of confidence that the problems with the J&J vaccine are being under reported. You all have to excuse my typing. We got the J&J vaccine day before Easter. Hub - no problems. I had all the usual problems of hives, fever, etc - that was why I wanted the vaccine when I had a day or 2 off after. For the rest of the week I was normal except for periodic extreme fatique and difficult concentrating. Saturday I broke out in hives again and started to not feel good. Hives went away after a few hours. Sunday I felt sick all day. Around dinner time I took snape out and started to feel really bad. Came in and took Tylenol, but headache got worse. Then, the right side of my mouth started to feel like I was going to get hives again - but then numness spread over all right side of face. I told Hub - take me to ER. I can remember Hub putting me in a wheel chair, taking me in, and leaving to park the car. Next thing I remember I was in the CT room and one of the orderlies accidently pulled my hair.

So until this morning I was in the hospital getting loads of tests and doctors kept trying to say, "Oh the vaccine couldn't have caused this - the vaccine is safe.... It can't be a TIA - it's just stress because you know stress makes one side of your face droop..." Then, this morning the nurses were talking in my room and one of them said, "She got the J&J vaccine about a week ago. They're pretty sure that caused tiis, but you know..." They didn't realize I was awake and I asked, "You know - what?" So, they told me they are under pressure to not report problems with the vaccine because they don't want people to be afraid to get it. So, when I was released and went to the pharmacy - I told my story to the pharmacist - and she called and reported it.
I'm sorry to hear you had a such a hard time with the side effects, and I hope you soon make a full recovery, but I'm not sure about the conclusions you draw from the nurse's comment.

I mean, it seems strange that *they* (whoever they are) are so successful at suppressing most reports of side effects with the vaccine, but twice now reports of one particular side effect have slipped past their informal censorship.
 

Ryanna Enfield

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All of my older family members have been vaccinated with Moderna and have had little or no symptoms. One had uncontrollable cold sensations for a couple hours and a few had a sore arm. My husband and his family all got Pfizer and only my husband felt a little feverish and a bit achy the next day (he still was able to work). I had my second shot of Moderna yesterday and later that evening and today I have had horrible aches and pains. It is like the aching you get with the flu, only kicked up ten notches. I'm also super fatigued and napping when I can. Hopefully I'll feel better in the next few days.
 

Zaida Gearbox

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I'm sorry to hear you had a such a hard time with the side effects, and I hope you soon make a full recovery, but I'm not sure about the conclusions you draw from the nurse's comment.

I mean, it seems strange that *they* (whoever they are) are so successful at suppressing most reports of side effects with the vaccine, but twice now reports of one particular side effect have slipped past their informal censorship.
Because there's a small percentage of people who are going to do the right thing and report - even if it costs them their job. I mean that's how hospital administrators and whoever is pressuring them is keeping the staff in line - report problems with the vaccine there will be retaliation. While it wasn't a medical situation, I saw this sort of thing at play in the prison system - we'd be instructed to not say ANYTHING about such and such thing - and even though they never came out and said, "OR ELSE" we all knew there was an OR ELSE at the end of the sentence. One particular situation with a suicide came to mind - and one of the psychologists refused to falsify documentation - and low and behold - within 6 months she was gone.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Because there's a small percentage of people who are going to do the right thing and report - even if it costs them their job. I mean that's how hospital administrators and whoever is pressuring them is keeping the staff in line - report problems with the vaccine there will be retaliation. While it wasn't a medical situation, I saw this sort of thing at play in the prison system - we'd be instructed to not say ANYTHING about such and such thing - and even though they never came out and said, "OR ELSE" we all knew there was an OR ELSE at the end of the sentence. One particular situation with a suicide came to mind - and one of the psychologists refused to falsify documentation - and low and behold - within 6 months she was gone.
Well, yes, but presumably this small percentage of people who are going to do the right thing will do it regardless the specific side effects they're seeing -- their only test is whether the symptoms are sufficiently serious to warrant reporting -- so while only 10% (or whatever) of the side effects that should be reported actually are reported, you'd expect the sampling to be accurate, and to see reports of 10% of all the bad reactions they encounter, not just 10% of the times when clotting is reported.

So my question is why, apparently, a small percentage of people all do the right thing when they encounter one particular side effect but apparently hardly any of these same people are prepared to report any of all the other side effects your nurses seemed to they and their colleagues were seeing.

If I'm willing to risk the displeasure of the hospital authorities when I see patients presenting with blood clotting, why would I not be similarly willing to put myself on the line when I see any other similar risks with the same vaccine?

Why the inconsistency, apparently not just in patterns of reporting in the US but also in several other countries too?

The answer, it seems to me, that most economically explains this anomaly is that clotting is, in fact, the only adverse reaction anyone's seen so far in sufficient numbers to give cause for concern, and your nurses were mistaken.
 
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Beebo Brink

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Reminder: the vaccine is not a bullet-proof bubble. It's more like body armor that reduces your chances of a fatal wound.

 

Zaida Gearbox

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I made a tele-med appt with my primary for Thursday. I told them I'm really unhappy with how things were explained to me at the hospital. When I spoke to the doctor he said I need to start taking an aspirin every day which I do anyway. He didn't go over my blood work or anything. Then, when I was leaving I was handed a prescription for a cholesterol medication. I said, "Do I have high choloesterol? I never have before, but I understand I'm getting older...." The nurse said she didn't know that the doctor just said to give it to me. Seriously? WTF?

My mom said the drug is the same one they gave my grandmother when she was having almost continual strokes on a daily basis - that even though it's a cholesterol drug it also helps prevent clots.
 
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Isabeau

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This pandemic is worldwide. I can’t speak for elsewhere but we have unions here. No one is suppressing anything. Doctors, scientists and researchers, nurses, and other health workers would speak out. They often butt heads with govt, speak to media, etc. If there is something more, we will hear of it.
 

Zaida Gearbox

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Zaida, do you not have a doctor you can speak to. You have a right to ask questions and get answers.
I have a tele-med appointment with my PCP tomorrow, and believe me I have questions. My aunt is a nurse practitioner, and I signed for her to get the results of my MRI and she's like, "They didn't go over ANY of this with you??????" Again, the reason I made the hospital release the report to her was because of something I heard when the nurses were talking in front of me thinking I was asleep.

And I have a RL friend who knows this guy:

‘Young, healthy’ South Mississippi man suffers stroke hours after receiving J&J vaccine (live5news.com)
 

Beebo Brink

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Given that COVID-19 is at its core a clotting disease, I'm not entirely surprised that these vaccine reactions involve strokes and clots. It's possible that the bad reaction to the vaccine is exactly what would happen if these same individuals were infected with coronavirus. The J&J vaccine may do a "better" job of mimicking the virus, thus triggering the same kind of self-destructive immune response that has been so devastating to the disease's victims.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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Given that COVID-19 is at its core a clotting disease, I'm not entirely surprised that these vaccine reactions involve strokes and clots. It's possible that the bad reaction to the vaccine is exactly what would happen if these same individuals were infected with coronavirus. The J&J vaccine may do a "better" job of mimicking the virus, thus triggering the same kind of self-destructive immune response that has been so devastating to the disease's victims.
Of course!

So, the Moderna and the Pfizer are mRNA vaccines - the J&J one isn't [I looked it up just now, to make sure], its using more traditional vaccine methods, if I am understanding it properly. So like you say, it is mimicing the actual virus better. The mRNA vaccines are tricking the system to fight any virus using the spike proteins, instead of the virus itself.
 

Beebo Brink

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If that is the case maybe they should say people over 40 should not get the J&J
If anything, it might be the opposite. Older people tend to have a less vigorous auto-immune response, whereas younger people have a stronger one that can end up being worse than the disease. This is why the 1918 flu disproportionately killed young adults -- their immune systems over-reacted. J&J may be less of a problem for the over 60 recipients, but be riskier (relatively speaking, given so few people are affected anway) for younger people.