Calling all Trump Supporters and MAGAs

Katheryne Helendale

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The known universe is billions of trillions of mega-lightyears across, so the population density of the universe is approximately zero.

Earth is part of the universe, South Korea is a country on Earth, meaning South Korea's population density must be approximately zero as well.

So why do they have fast internet?


The problem with the above statement is it's assuming that populations are equally spread out, as if a population density of 1.65 people per square kilometre means that there's exactly 2 people per square kilometre, and one of them is a double-amputee.
What I'm trying to say is that, in the US, about half the population lives in dense urban centers well served by broadband Internet both wired and wireless, and about half the population lives in sparsely-populated areas, either alone or in small towns, neither of which are well served by broadband Internet if at all. South Korea is almost entirely a dense population center, and is also compact - a small network of cell towers can adequately cover the entire nation.
 

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What I'm trying to say is that, in the US, about half the population lives in dense urban centers well served by broadband Internet both wired and wireless, and about half the population lives in sparsely-populated areas, either alone or in small towns, neither of which are well served by broadband Internet if at all. South Korea is almost entirely a dense population center, and is also compact - a small network of cell towers can adequately cover the entire nation.
Thinking about my country, we have a low population density but the difference is our government thought improving internet infrastructure was a good idea, and are doing something about it. (getting close to completion)
I live in the major population centre in my province, a "metropolis" of around 60,000, and 3 hours drive from anywhere bigger.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Most of the population in your "more advanced" countries aren't as spread out as we are in the US. When you have nearly half of the country's population living in rural areas, it makes designing a data infrastructure that serves everyone without being cost-prohibitive nearly impossible.
Thank god for America that type of logic was not applied when the power lines were being build.
 

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When the power lines were being built, we did not have an existing infrastructure to replace - not on the scale that was being put into place.

Thank goodness there are people capable of understanding that.
 

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What I'm trying to say is that, in the US, about half the population lives in dense urban centers well served by broadband Internet both wired and wireless, and about half the population lives in sparsely-populated areas, either alone or in small towns, neither of which are well served by broadband Internet if at all. South Korea is almost entirely a dense population center, and is also compact - a small network of cell towers can adequately cover the entire nation.
About 80% of the US population lives in urban areas
 

danielravennest

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Thank god for America that type of logic was not applied when the power lines were being build.
It *was* applied when the power lines were being built. Power companies wired up the cities and ignored the farm areas. Then the Rural Electrification Administration (FDR era) sponsored rural cooperatives who built member-owned power companies. Farmers were used to field work, so it wasn't that hard for them to plant poles and run wires.

I live in suburban Atlanta, but I'm served by one of those electric co-ops, along with about 120,000 other customers. This was farmland originally, but the metro area has grown since the 1930's, and whoever wired it up first still has the business.
 

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Bartholomew Gallacher

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And, if 80 percent of the population lives in urban areas, why is it so damned difficult to elect a progressive government?
I am quite sure that the people of Detroit for example are quite a lot different compared to New York. Just because somebody lives in an urban area doesn't mean that he's progressive by default.
 

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And, if 80 percent of the population lives in urban areas, why is it so damned difficult to elect a progressive government?
Maybe, because a lot of Americans are conservative in their way of thinking, even when living urban and an awful lot of Americans can't be arsed to participate in any election?
 
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Ashiri

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Welp. I give up. If anyone else has a logical explanation for why large portions of the US lacks broadband Internet access, I'm all ears.

And, if 80 percent of the population lives in urban areas, why is it so damned difficult to elect a progressive government?
A lot depends on the definition of "urban" and depends on country and who's using the definition. A geographer may have a different definition from a sociologist and the census bureau a third. Even in cities there will be people who vote for a right government over a left wing one. When you also factor in the small towns (which are still categorised as urban areas) dependent on agriculture, then it's easy to see why votes go as they do.
 

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I am quite sure that the people of Detroit for example are quite a lot different compared to New York. Just because somebody lives in an urban area doesn't mean that he's progressive by default.
Not really. If you look at this map of Michigan, which indicates the votes in the 2016 election by county, you'll see that Detroit, in Wayne County (down in the South East corner of the map) was strongly Democrat. The larger circles on the chart indicate larger populations, and you will see that the larger circles, indicating more populous areas, tend to be predominantly Democratic:







 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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That still does not prove that urban area is always equal to progressive thinking people; in fact, it is not.
 

Jolene Benoir

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Urban areas *tend* to be liberal; keyword tend. Of course individuals within an area are diverse and yes, some of them lean conservative. Also, technically they would consider an entire metropolitan area urban by nature of its proximity to the city core which means that would include suburbs which can be an entirely different voting bloc; see white flight. The same goes for rural, they may lean conservative but there will be liberal folks there, as well. In addition rural in the upper midwest might be an entirely different animal than rural in the deep south.

The fact does remain that there is a rather large divide between city and suburb/rural in ways of thinking and voting patterns. That is reflected in elections.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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That still does not prove that urban area is always equal to progressive thinking people; in fact, it is not.
I interpret the map as indicating that, at least in Michigan, Hillary Clinton polled far better in the more populous districts -- the larger circles on the map -- than she did in the less densely populated small towns and rural areas, indicated by smaller circles, which tended to vote more strongly Republican to the extent that they ultimately outweighed the Democrats' overwhelming majorities in places like Wayne, Oakland and Genesee counties.

How do you interpret it?
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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And that's entirely not the point!

The point is, that just because an area is considered to be an urban one this doesn't always mean that people there are Democratic to left wing/progressive in America. Jolene described it perfectly.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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And that's entirely not the point!

The point is, that just because an area is considered to be an urban one this doesn't always mean that people there are Democratic to left wing/progressive in America. Jolene described it perfectly.
Well, of course just because an area is considered an urban one it doesn't mean everyone there is a Democrat or Progressive. However, it seems to me indisputably the case that, at least in the USA, the large cities -- New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Detroit, Houston and so on -- are always considerably to the left of the less densely populated rural areas.

One of the arguments in favour of the electoral college, as I understand it, is that if the President were elected by a straight popular vote, then at least in recent years the Democrats would have won every presidential election easily simply on the strength of the majorities in New York, LA, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Chicago and maybe one or two other big cities, no matter how anywhere else voted.
 

Katheryne Helendale

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I am quite sure that the people of Detroit for example are quite a lot different compared to New York. Just because somebody lives in an urban area doesn't mean that he's progressive by default.
I do get that. But, at least on the US, there is a higher chance any given person will be progressive living in an urban center than someone living out in the sticks. It stands to reason then that the more people there are living in urban centers, the more left-leaning the populace as a whole will tend to be.
 
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Brenda Archer

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And all this is why we're governed now by a minority government much further to the right of an already right-leaning population.

People in urban areas don't have the same influence with their vote, which combined with gerrymandered districts can make it look to them as if voting won't do much.

The pattern with most American cities is very predictable - an urban core that used to be poor but is now gentrified and expensive if the economy is good, patches of older suburbs near the core that tend to be lower income to middle class, and an outer exurbia (often outside the ring road, a freeway circling the city) that has most of the new job growth, the upper middle class, and the Republican voters.

Since cities like Houston, Dallas and Phoenix are being built on flat ground they follow this pattern closely, and if you are new in town, you can predict where you can find things based on it.

Rural economies are anything outside the exurbia and for years have had little job growth, if any, and outmigration. This concentrates the retired voters who are the base.

It also makes the party conflict a generational war between a home-owning older Republican voter and a young voter who has migrated away from home in search of work or education and has few assets.

I have the impression migration is less in Europe? Regions would then mean more. Here many, many middle class people live far from their parents, although that has been slowing down as real wages stagnate.

So you can pretty much predict how a neighborhood will vote if you know its racial composition and its average age, with the exception being hard core religious areas.

If I want to find liberal Dems, I look for a suburb near a university. If I want to find conservative Republicans, I head out of town. We don't have many cities with strong local personalities. There are some: for example, Salt Lake City, Philadelphia, San Antonio - but if you're looking at a liberal enclave, it's going to be pretty similar anywhere you find it.

This is part of the Republican dilemma - sensible conservatives being outnumbered by pockets of the hyper religious and the elderly. And the problem with the Democrats is the tension between multigenerational minority urban neighborhoods and nomadic, middle and upper middle class voters mostly in their own enclaves either in exurbia or the expensive gentrified core.

This situation is neatly set up to disenfranchise younger voters who lack wealth.
 

Jolene Benoir

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Brenda brings up a very good point here. Some city cores are being gentrified, often by older people that once fled to the suburbs but now that they are older, have more money and are empty-nesters are moving back into the city in big, expensive condos/high-rises being built for them. I know that it's happening here in my city.

That is bound to change the voting makeup of urban areas, as well.