Brexit.

Tigger

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Remember that one of the benefits of leaving the EU is ending the red tape that strangles our businesses.

For evidence see the new procedure for selling fish into the EU after brexit....

 

Argent Stonecutter

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It really feels to me as if we're now in June or early July 1914, on the verge not of a land war in Europe, of course, but dangerously close to the edge of something equally destructive for the whole continent if we don't draw back.
GIven what an absolute Monty Python farce the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was (incluing one of the assassins eating expired poison and jumping into a river less than three feet deep), that sounds about right.
 

danielravennest

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The difference though is that the US is not a former empire, but more like a challenged feeling empire.
The US was an expanding empire in the 19th century, acquiring territory from other empires like France and Spain, while not consulting the original residents of those territories. We got the Philippines from Spain, then allowed them to become independent, like many other former colonies. Other territory got formally incorporated into the country. So I count us as a mostly successful empire, that has kept most of the territory we accumulated.
 

Chin Rey

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So I count us as a mostly successful empire, that has kept most of the territory we accumulated.
USA is still much smaller than Russia though. Unless you also count the part of Antarctica USA claims sovereignty over but if you do, you also have to do that for Britain and Norway, making them almost as big.

But land area isn't really what matters the most, it's the international power that is important. The British Empire at its peak didn't only control its colonies, it also had susbtantial power over nominally independent nations. Marauding English nobilities could do pretty much whatever they liked anywhere they liked safe in the knowledge that if they got caught, Britian would send a gunboat or two to the rescue.

US power is partly because of its strong military forces of course but mostly because it controls the de facto world valuta. Most international transactions are done in US dollars and 60% of the world's money reserve is still in dollars. Not only does that give the USA a lot of control over the economy worldwide, the dollar itself is an important export article. And it also makes the nation attractive to entrepeneurs and highly educated experts who come there to get their projects financed or find a well paid job. Silicon Valley may be in California but the vast majority of the movers and shakers there are immigrants.

But this has slowly but surely been changing ever since the dollar became a fiat currency. More and more of the international economy is based on other valutas and more and more of the top notch engineers and entrepeneurs find opportunities in or closer to their native nations. It has been very gradual but it can accelrate. Imagine if the US government forgot about the "give us your hungry, your tired, your poor" slogan. Imagine that they also started to "weapoize" the dollar - actively using it to put pressure on other countries and breaking the world's trust in it. Then imagine the FED suddenly decided it was time to push a fresh trillion of dollars onto the market over two weeks. Is this all hypotetical? Well, no responsible authorities would even think fo doing anything like that of course but if it happened, it would certainly significantly weaken USA's international power - not over night but quite fast.

Socialism as it was originally defined by Henri de Saint-Simon (long before Marx hijacked the word and distorted its meaning into something completely different) operated with two different kinds of people, workers and idlers. Not workers as in factory workers but as in anybody contributes to the wealth of the nation, farmers, farmhands, teachers, scientists, merchants, artists, busniess owners, entrepeneurs etc., etc., etc. Of course we are all a little bit of both workers and idlers but some are more of one or the other.
A society is in trouble when there is too many idlers and not enough productive workers and it's in serious trouble when the idlers take too much of the reward away from the actual contributors. The worst case is when the idlers become idolized and generally regarded as "better people" than the honest workers. Why would anybody want to do a honest day of work when there's more moeny and prestige in pushing papers around? This is a sure sign of decadence - a well advanced stage of decadence even - and I think we can see it clearly both in the British and the US societies. (This isn't about socialism btw, it goes far deeper than any political ideology. I only used that as a convenient starting point.)

What really, really worries me is, can we see the same signs in the rest of the western world?
 
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Canada's Really Big.

Our mountains Are very pointy
Our prairies are not
The rest is Kinda bumpy
But, man, do we have a lot (we gotta lot of land, we gotta whole lot of land)
So stand up and be proud
And sing out very loud
We stand out from the crowd
'cause Canada's really big!

 

Argent Stonecutter

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USA is still much smaller than Russia though. Unless you also count the part of Antarctica USA claims sovereignty over but if you do, you also have to do that for Britain and Norway Australia, making it almost as big.
FTFY

 
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Chin Rey

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Woops, thank you!

I thought USA claimed a big chunk of Antarctica and didn't know about Australia's part.

So, the largest country in the world by area is Australia, followed by Norway, the UK and Russia. Is that correct?
But in any case, regardless of size, it's not really an empire if it doesn't have emperor penguins.
 
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If you had listened to the song I posted you would know that is the wrong answer.

"We're bigger than Australia and it's a continent".

Australia 2.97 million sq miles.
Canada 3.85 million sq miles.
 

Brenda Archer

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USA is still much smaller than Russia though. Unless you also count the part of Antarctica USA claims sovereignty over but if you do, you also have to do that for Britain and Norway, making them almost as big.

But land area isn't really what matters the most, it's the international power that is important. The British Empire at its peak didn't only control its colonies, it also had susbtantial power over nominally independent nations. Marauding English nobilities could do pretty much whatever they liked anywhere they liked safe in the knowledge that if they got caught, Britian would send a gunboat or two to the rescue.

US power is partly because of its strong military forces of course but mostly because it controls the de facto world valuta. Most international transaction are done in US dollars and 60% of the world's money reserve is still in dollars. Not only does that give the USA a lot of control over the economy worldwide, the dollar itself is an important export article. And it also makes the nation attractive to entrepeneurs and highly educated experts who come there to get their projects financed or find a well paid job. Silicon Valley may be in California but the vast majority of the movers and shakers there are immigrants.

But this has slowly but surely been changing ever since the dollar became a fiat currency. More and more of the international economy is based on other valutas and more and more of the top notch engineers and entrepeneurs find opportunities in or closer to their native nations. It has been very gradual but it can accelrate. Imagine if the US government forgot about the "give us your hungry, your tired, your poor" slogan. Imagine that they also started to "weapoize" the dollar - actively using it to put pressure on other countries and breaking the world's trust in it. Then imagine the FED suddenly decided it was time to push a fresh trillion of dollars onto the market over two weeks. Is this all hypotetical? Well, no responsible authorities would even think fo doing anything like that of course but if it happened, it would certainly significantly weaken USA's international power - not over night but quite fast.

Socialism as it was originally defined by Henri de Saint-Simon (long before Marx hijacked the word and distorted its meaning into something completely different) operated with two different kinds of people, workers and idlers. Not workers as in factory workers but as in anybody contributes to the wealth of the nation, farmers, farmhands, teachers, scientists, merchants, artists, busniess owners, entrepeneurs etc., etc., etc. Of course we are all a little bit of both workers and idlers but some are more of one or the other.
A society is in trouble when there is too many idlers and not enough productive workers and it's in serious trouble when the idlers take too much of the reward away from the actual contributors. The worst case is when the idlers become idolized and generally regarded as "better people" than the honest workers. Why would anybody want to do a honest day of work when there's more moeny and prestige in pushing papers around? This is a sure sign of decadence - a well advanced stage of decadence even - and I think we can see it clearly both in the British and the US societies. (This isn't about socialism btw, it goes far deeper than any political ideology. I only used that as a convenient starting point.)

What really, really worries me is, can we see the same signs in the rest of the western world?
We definitely had a stage in which automation, quick communication in markets, and financialization were creating an army of paper pushers. But automation will eat the other two, concentrating wealth and power into the hands of a very few. They are only nominally American, especially if our government loses the power to tax and regulate them. They are a large obstacle to entrepreneurship or any notions of a genuine free market. The rentier and financial classes run the government.

This seems like a recipe for shortsighted, bad decisions. Decline is inevitable.
 

Chin Rey

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Anyway, the correct order is Russia, Canada, US, China, Brazil, Australia, India.
I stand corrected again. But only partly. Amazingly, even with Antractica included, Russia is still the biggest but Australia is second. ;)
 
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I stand corrected again. But only partly. Amazingly, even with Antractica included, Russia is still the biggest but Australia is second. ;)
If you want me to take you seriously you will have to back that up with links I can trust.
 

Chin Rey

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Chin Rey

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We definitely had a stage in which automation, quick communication in markets, and financialization were creating an army of paper pushers. But automation will eat the other two, concentrating wealth and power into the hands of a very few. They are only nominally American, especially if our government loses the power to tax and regulate them. They are a large obstacle to entrepreneurship or any notions of a genuine free market. The rentier and financial classes run the government.
There's another aspect to this and that's the balance between real economy and financial economy.

When the financial economy dwarfs the real one, which is very much the case both in the UK and USA, it is no longer economically viable to produce the goods and services people actually need to survive and thrive and the society has to rely heavily on imports to get by.

Both those countries finance their imports mainly by exporting financial services and "services" of various kinds but those functions are relatively easy to reproduce elsewhere and besides, sooner or later the financial economy will crash - it's not a question of if but when. What happens when they no longer have any income to pay for all the things they need to import? USA probably has a strong enough agriculture they won't starve but that's about it. The Uk can't even feed itself.

Edit: Forgot to explain what financial economy means:

 

Brenda Archer

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There's another aspect to this and that's the balance between real economy and financial economy.

When the financial economy dwarfs the real one, which is very much the case both in the UK and USA, it is no longer economically viable to produce the goods and services people actually need to survive and thrive and the society has to rely heavily on imports to get by.

Both those countries finance their imports mainly by exporting financial services and "services" of various kinds but those functions are relatively easy to reproduce elsewhere and besides, sooner or later the financial economy will crash - it's not a question of if but when. What happens when they no longer have any income to pay for all the things they need to import? USA probably has a strong enough agriculture they won't starve but that's about it. The Uk can't even feed itself.

Edit: Forgot to explain what financial economy means:

Lol!

We’re still a food exporter. Climate change is already affecting planting zones, though, and it looks like beef feedlots will have to keep heading north and eventually wind up in Canada. The US will get smacked with agricultural water shortages, too.

The Republicans are so busy grabbing everything that isn’t nailed down, I don’t expect any progress on this front until they’re out.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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But this has slowly but surely been changing ever since the dollar became a fiat currency. More and more of the international economy is based on other valutas and more and more of the top notch engineers and entrepeneurs find opportunities in or closer to their native nations. It has been very gradual but it can accelrate. Imagine if the US government forgot about the "give us your hungry, your tired, your poor" slogan. Imagine that they also started to "weapoize" the dollar - actively using it to put pressure on other countries and breaking the world's trust in it. Then imagine the FED suddenly decided it was time to push a fresh trillion of dollars onto the market over two weeks. Is this all hypotetical? Well, no responsible authorities would even think fo doing anything like that of course but if it happened, it would certainly significantly weaken USA's international power - not over night but quite fast.
Bold markings by me; we don't have to imagine that, because this is exactly what Trump is doing - just take a look at his "wonderful" Mexican border project, and his take on illegal immigrants in the USA.

But the US government did not forget about "give us your hungry, your tired, your poor" - it simple decided that this is outdated, and that they don't want no more plumbers, carpenters or brick layers, but instead software engineers, PhD graduates and similar educated people as the new immigrant class.
 

Brenda Archer

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Bold markings by me; we don't have to imagine that, because this is exactly what Trump is doing - just take a look at his "wonderful" Mexican border project, and his take on illegal immigrants in the USA.

But the US government did not forget about "give us your hungry, your tired, your poor" - it simple decided that this is outdated, and that they don't want no more plumbers, carpenters or brick layers, but instead software engineers, PhD graduates and similar educated people as the new immigrant class.
It’s even worse than that, if someone is from the wrong country, talent will not matter.

Quite a few people in the construction trades are immigrants.

Trump is only President because of the Electoral College, and the Senate is not majority elected. Most of us are infuriated by the Trumpian crap.
 

Tigger

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As this is a rolling coverage link I will quote the current title. Remember this is Officially Neutral Corbyn who would hold a referendum (maybe) if he got into power but wouldn't campaign for either side.

Labour conference: Corbyn says UK could be better off outside EU if right deal available - live news
 
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