WTF Armed Neo-Nazis Crash Detroit Pride with Police Escort

Innula Zenovka

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I may be mistaken, but didn't the Nazi Sturmabteilung (aka "Brownshirts") play a not inconsiderable role in Hitler's rise to power in the 20s and 30s? They were, of course, notoriously violent, and I think they tended to get their retaliation in first rather than leave it to the other side to start it.

Just to reiterate, I'm opposed to assaulting Nazis, even by throwing milkshakes at them, without lawful excuse (self-defence, defence of another) but that's because I want people to able peacefully to go about their lawful business, be it protesting, counterprotesting, taking the dog for a walk or going shopping, without having to contend with the threat of unlawful violence and public disorder. I'd rather have the police keep order.

But if the situation changes so there's no alternative, then people have to have the right to defend themselves.
 

Han Held

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Now generally speaking:



Nobody forces you to reason with them if you don't want to; but the above approach if really done by you would put you on the same low morale level the Nazis are standing on.
Bullshit: self defense.

And yes, you cannot discuss with most of them; but then again most Democrats nowadays don't really understand what makes the Republicans tick either as well. If you stop to listen it also means that you stop understanding on how really to solve the problem.
Also bullshit -firstly most Democrats aren't actively plotting to take over the government and kill people. There's no daylight between nazis and democrats, morally or practically.

And by punching faces those political extremists won't go away; you would just give them what they are desperate for, an enemy image.
Bullshit. They already have that, and wether they go away or not is immaterial. By standing up to them, you motivate others to do the same -you boost the morale of those who feel overwhelmed and hopeless.

What only makes extremists in a society really go away is balancing out the social inequities at great scale and whichever the problems are that make them strong. Of course with Trump as corporate sycophant and right wing lover in the office this is nowadays a hard task to achieve.

What made the original Nazis strong? Hyperinflation in 1929, a big class of poor people, no big support for the democracy, many low income jobs, great unemployment rates, no hope for a change. Many of this can be easily applied to today's America as well; that's what those people are thriving on.

Then somebody showed up and gave them easy answers after he tried a putsch first and failed; he wrote even a book about what he intends to do if in power while in jail for his failed attempt, one of the most unread best sellers of all times. Too bad, because in this book he exactly laid down what he intended to do to the Jews, amonst other things, that nobody read or believed it.
You are correct about that -however, there's almost zero chance that either the democrats or republicans will fix the underlying economic/inequality issue.

...the fact that Biden is even being considered as a candidate confirms that.

In the case of the US? We have had 30 years of far-right propaganda pushed by our media, which has resulted in a generation being raised by it.

For US, the wheels are off the wagon, and a hard crash is invetiable. That said ...morally speaking? It's always good to punch a nazi -because the nazi would have no hesitation in killing you if it was able to.
 

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Facism only grows stronger by "being the bigger man" and doing nothing about it.

You can't ignore it or reason with it, it will not let you ignore it and it cares not to be reasonable.

This fetish for finding a middleground on this helps no one but them, they count on peoples want for harmony to get their foot in the door for their shit.
 

Sean Gorham

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Don't even try to draw an equivalence between everyday people and Nazis.

I wasn't even alive during WWII and I understand why you shouldn't let fascists even begin to get a foothold anywhere. Fascists do not get the benefit of the doubt. Fascists do not get to play the "balanced debate" or "both sides" cards. ("some very fine people" :barf:) Fascists don't care if you punch them in the face. Punch them or not, they're going to exploit any vulnerabilities in your behavior.

I do agree that we need to address the root causes of the problem (inflation, unemployment, insecurity, etc.) Those are long-term problems. Fighting fascists on the ground, that's a right-now problem.

I know that we'll never agree on this, but I'll say it again. Fascists do not play by the rules. They don't care about your rules! They'll take your moral high ground and turn it against you. Fascists can't be placated, or appeased, or reasoned with. If you stand up and fight, in any way you can, you have a chance to defeat them. If you sit and do nothing, they win, every time.
 

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Sometimes one has to ask whether swapping "fascist" for "jihadist", "stalinist", or any other extremist "ist" will garner the same "Lets just talk with them".
 

Innula Zenovka

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Every year at school, one of our French teachers, who had served with some distinction in the RAF during WW2, used to read at the school assembly just before Remembrance Day from the final chapter of Albert Camus' classic novel, La Peste, (The Plague).

The novel is ostensibly about an outbreak of a plague in the French Algerian city of Oran, but can easily be read as dealing with the French experience of fascism and Nazi occupation.

I will never forget his reading of the book's concluding paragraphs, booming through the school hall like the voice of God as he glared down at us, trying to make us understand what he and his generation had seen as their duty, and what he was trying to teach us was ours, too:

Nonetheless, he knew that the tale he had to tell could not be one of a final victory. It could be only the record of what had had to be done, and what assuredly would have to be done again in the never ending fight against terror and its relentless onslaughts, despite their personal afflictions, by all who, while unable to be saints but refusing to bow down to pestilences, strive their utmost to be healers.

And, indeed, as he listened to the cries of joy rising from the town, Rieux remembered that such joy is always imperiled. He knew what those jubilant crowds did not know but could have learned from books: that the plague bacillus never dies or disappears for good; that it can lie dormant for years and years in furniture and linen-chests; that it bides its time in bedrooms, cellars, trunks, and bookshelves; and that perhaps the day would come when, for the bane and the enlightening of men, it would rouse up its rats again and send them forth to die in a happy city.
 

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It seems nazis do not even know how to string together a good argument. One on twitter found out that the german nazis had burned books about trans medical research and did not know how he (I am assuming) felt about that. At the complete bafflement from people he said how would people feel if copies of mein kamf were being burned. Which led to it being explained to him what mattered was the burning part, not what the book was about or your reaction to it.
 

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With a normal president, the FBI would be swarming all over the Nazi's and far right extremists, just like the Klan. It is only because of Chucklehead that this is an issue and his day is comming.

They feel emboldened. Which means when they get swept up again it'll be easier to find them, and easier to press charges. The Rico act was designed to take people like these down. Let the system work. No matter what the clown wants, local authorities are not about to let them get out of control, it is only the Federal hands which are tied. People still get arrested for harassment and terroristic threats and acts, employers still perform criminal background checks, and evidence is easier than ever to record.

In the mean time, resist, but don't lose your convictions of what is right or wrong. It is this "turnabout is fair play" attitude which makes many places in the world unstable. We can't afford that, and we should be better.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Morally better or better strategists and tacticians? (Guess which I think is probably more use in this particular context!)
 
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Han Held

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Morally better or better strategists and tacticians? (Guess which I think is probably more use in this particular context!)
Better strategists, which in part means not falling for their shit ("freeze peach" or trying to find a civil 'middleground' that only causes us to get sucker punched by them).

We already are, by default, morally superior (kinda hard not to be since we are talking about actual fucking nazis).
 

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Bullshit. They already have that, and wether they go away or not is immaterial. By standing up to them, you motivate others to do the same -you boost the morale of those who feel overwhelmed and hopeless.
:qft:

It also lets the Nazis and nazi-wannabes know, in no uncertain term, that they do not hold the power.
 

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Standing up to nazis doesn't mean becoming violent. That just gives the whole situation the opportunity to blow up and get someone killed. Standing up to them means not being intimidated and minimizing their import. Nonviolence is a thousand times more effective than violence.

I'm a Jew. I had a couple family members with numbers on their arms when I was a very little girl. No one would tell me what they were for. They kept dismissing my questions because I was little and I had to find out in school years later, after they were gone. THAT is letting the nazis win.

I believe you should heed the words of the survivors of the first nazis, "Never forget". Never try to pretend that bigotry and hate of all kinds doesn't still exist. Shine light on them and what they are doing and show that you are not afraid or intimidated. Belittling them - laughing at them - being happy and unafraid and make fun of them. There are few things more emasculating than being laughed at. They have no sense of humor and they are drawn to this kind of hate group because they feel isolated and want to feel superior to other people. Take that away from them. Make them feel tiny when they march. That's what needs to happen any time they show their filthy heads.

I feel almost trite writing this, but it makes me cringe when people suggest raising the violence level around these events. It is really just what they are hoping for.
 

Jolene Benoir

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Apropos of nothing in particular:

I've been watching his Star Trek videos for some time now. It's always interesting to see him refute the new far right when they have hissy fits saying a female, black lead is not being true to Star Trek and other assorted oddities that they imagine Star Trek to be or not be.
 
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Kara Spengler

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I believe you should heed the words of the survivors of the first nazis, "Never forget". Never try to pretend that bigotry and hate of all kinds doesn't still exist. Shine light on them and what they are doing and show that you are not afraid or intimidated. Belittling them - laughing at them - being happy and unafraid and make fun of them. There are few things more emasculating than being laughed at. They have no sense of humor and they are drawn to this kind of hate group because they feel isolated and want to feel superior to other people. Take that away from them. Make them feel tiny when they march. That's what needs to happen any time they show their filthy heads.
I am guessing you have seen the scene in the Avengers between Loki and the man playing a holocaust survivor?
 

Kara Spengler

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Soen Eber

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The only response to Nazis is "how quickly can we eliminate them?"
Agreed But let the police and the FBI handle the "punch in the face" & assorted violence. No one here needs assault charges, an arrest record, civil lawsuits, and explaining your arrest record to future employers.

I'd also like to say "acts of violence are wrong" but that doesn't seem to be getting much traction here aside from Innula and the resident Germans so I'm left with utilitarian morality. Plus I have to agree that it IS fun to see Richard Spencer get punched in his face.
 
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Sean Gorham

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Let me be clear  —  and this will probably sound contradictory, given my previous posts  —  I don't want violence. I'm not spoiling for a fight. But I also don't think acts of violence are always wrong. I want to say violence is a last resort, and most of the time it is. Nazis, though. :voodoo: In the end I think this is the only way to really deal with fascists. Anything else is just giving them ground, a little bit at a time.

I also see law enforcement escorting Nazis as tacit approval of them. I don't believe that fascists get to play the "free speech/assembly" card. They're fascists, for crying out loud. They're a cancer on any society. The standard rules do not apply. Allow them to flourish at your own peril.

Yes, I see the problems here when it comes to defining just what kind of speech/assembly counts as impermissible. I'm neither a legal scholar nor a lawyer. But I can sure as heck point at a gathering of Nazis and say "HELL NO!" Anyone who says they deserve the same treatment as ordinary citizens may need to reexamine European history from about 80 years ago. :beatup:

I'll say it again: tolerant societies must not tolerate intolerance. If they do, they invite their own eventual doom.