All things Linux

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Well Linux in general has four big problems which prevent it from becoming a mainstream desktop OS since ages:

1. no binary/API stable driver interface in the kernel, therefore bad general hardware driver availability
2. no distribution which is the common and agreed Linux standard
3. no Microsoft Office available
4. no important computer brand ships it at massive scale as preinstalled OS.

Point 1 is a fundamental decision made back then ages ago by Linus Torvalds. They do prefer simply to have as many drivers in the kernel as possible, and to maintain it there. Their argument: if the maintainer vanishs, they are still able to keep it in running state and adapt it to internal kernel changes.
Point 2 for example is the reason why Steam comes with its Linux runtime, which is more or less their own maintained version of Ubuntu libraries. Because developing software for Linux and distributing would mean otherwise to have to compile and support it for most distributions separately, and stuff like Snap are not a good solution to that problem either.
Point 3 is self explanatory. When Steve Jobs went back to Apple in 1998, one of his first moves was to get Bill Gates to invest in Apple and to sign a deal with Microsoft, where they agreed to sell Office on Apple. Because already back then Jobs knew if you want to get a foot into the enterprise market, so corporate offices, you have to have Microsoft Office, otherwise you're screwed. And no, I mean natively available, not via emulation layers like WINE/Crossover.
Point 4 is easy - that's Linus Torvalds own explanation why Windows is so wide spread, because it's preinstalled on so many computers while Linux is not. And people are lazy, they just take what's there from the start. Or buy a Mac instead.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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Anybody can make a Linux distro. So anybody does. And everyone on the net has weird preferences for their favorite shell over Ubuntu or Red Hat.

I don't know why anyone anywhere on the net recommends anything but Ubuntu for newbies. It's not the best, but it's definitely the least worst.

I might have also recommended Red Hat ten years ago, for a small business newbie, but Ubuntu has gotten better for business and the Red Hat world has gotten worse.

(As a developer, I would always stay clear of Red Hat. I have had to build RPMs as a part of my job and holy fuck)
 
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Office.com kind of removes point three.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Office.com kind of removes point three.
Nope. It's a bandaid, but no real solution. Need to work with Excel and a file which contains several hundred thousand of lines? For sure not a thing to do there. I'm dealing with such files on a daily base.

Or how about if you do work with Access? No web replacement for it.

Or when trying fancy documents with Word. Get's also rather slow quite fast, and some document formattings are not displayed right on the web, but the desktop app only as well.

And aside that many companies really just have something against putting their data into the cloud. Personally I would never as a company willingly put my data in the cloud where god else who knows might have a look at it.
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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I don't know why anyone anywhere on the net recommends anything but Ubuntu for newbies. It's not the best, but it's definitely the least worst.
As a Windows person who's skeptically test driving Linux, here's my feedback.

I'm using Pop!_OS but Pop!_OS uses the GNOME desktop just like Ubuntu.

I really don't like this desktop. I don't like that there is a top bar with nothing but the date and a system menu and a whole lot of empty space that would make a perfectly good taskbar/quickbar, but whoever makes GNOME decided that taskbars are dumb and put the quickbar functionality into a second pop-up panel called the dock which intrudes into the screen from the side or bottom and takes up a bunch of extra space. I don't like the original-Windows-8-like application launcher that takes up the whole screen. I don't like having to open another full-screen menu just to switch between open application windows.

But you know, switching to any new anything requires you to get used to a new UI whether you like it or not, so I just tried to use it for a couple of weeks - until I found out there were a bunch of things you could install to force GNOME to give you an actual taskbar/quickbar with a regular Start-type menu and like within ten minutes after learning that, that's what I did, lol. But it's not an easy or especially intuitive process to do all that and get an end result that works well.

Right now I've said screw all that and I'm playing with a non-GNOME desktop called Plasma, which just comes with all that stuff integrated. But even Plasma, in this case, in the end is another thing plastered on top of GNOME because GNOME is part of the Pop distro and can't just be uninstalled and got rid of, at least not in a way that I as a new user feel safe trying. So if I want to slim my build back down I'd probably have to end up getting rid of Pop! and choosing another distribution that comes with Plasma by default.

But that's another problem that I think a lot of hardcore Linux users don't appreciate. For some very lucky people that I'm happy for, test-driving and tinkering with different Linux distros is a fun hobby. "Just try out different distros until you find one that you like" is like some kind of mantra, you hear it over and over. But...."trying out a new distro" - I mean, really, really testing it to see if it's something you're going to be comfortable permanently using - it takes a LOT of time. You have to install and set it up. You have to download and install all your applications. You have to sign into all of your crap. You have to get the bundled apps interfacing with your calendars and mail and stuff in order to test those apps. You have to spend hours "tweaking" the settings to match your personal preferences. You have to spend a few hours more getting some of your peripherals working correctly. We're talking sometimes days of lost productivity, or even just personal fun and relaxation time, that you have to commit to giving up in order to just get the build in a state where you can reasonably use it for your day-to-day stuff. And you have to do all that on every single new distro, knowing that you might not even be using it for more than a week or two before you get to do it all over again. It is an exercise in drawn-out frustration.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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As a Windows person who's skeptically test driving Linux, here's my feedback.
As a UNIX person who's been doing this for 40 years, testing out a distro is absolutely a huge pain in the ass. I can't be arsed doing that any more.

There's lots of stuff in Ubuntu that I don't like, but it's basically the default distro these days. It's like the Windows of Linux. People make sure their stuff works in Ubuntu. Using Ubuntu gives you the least friction. So I use it.

Like I put up with the things that have gotten worse in Windows and OS X. I used to use third party shit to push back against the shit, but I don't bother any more. It's like driving a car where some morning you find the steering wheel has become a joystick. It's ALL like that.
 

Monica Dream

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I don't know why anyone anywhere on the net recommends anything but Ubuntu for newbies. It's not the best, but it's definitely the least worst.
Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu, but has the advantage of stripping out whatever invasive BS that Canonical is installing on Ubuntu at any given time.

Also, Linux is for servers -not for desktops. Don't use Linux on your desktop unless you're interested in doing a fair amount of tweaking and customization. If you're not interested in tweaking etc, yet still interested in learning some Unix-like whatever these days, install WSL or use MacOS instead and save yourself the headache.

That's what I usually do, and I've been fucking around with *nix for 23 years now.

At the moment, there's no advantage I can see to using Linux on your desktop -none.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Linux on the desktop has advantages for sure:

* it's free - no hidden license costs
* it doesn't phone home like Microsoft Windows does
* it's technically advanced
* it has ZFS/Btrfs, so file systems which are way superior over NTFS and can do very interesting things, especially for backups but not only for them
* you can build the desktop of your dreams
* forget your worries about viruses or your system getting slow
* actually it performs really well, also for games. Rich Geldreich had a series of posts where he clearly showed that Valve's source engine worked much, much quicker on Linux than under Windows after their minimal port.

The thing is that Linux has not one standard desktop environment - it has many to choose from.

In the beginning there were just window managers, which exactly do that - draw a frame around windows and handle them. Then came CDE, which was based on Motif. The other full blown DE was Nextstep, which later got rewritten as GNUstep, and SUN also had their own thingie under Solaris.

One of the first new DEs then was KDE. Since its GUI library, Qt, was not free back then as reaction to that Miguel De Icaza then started GNOME based on GTK+. After that a couple of more DEs spawned in between, either forks from these or indepent with different goals.

One major step for GNOME was from version 2 to version 3. It was basically a major rewrite, which changed the whole DE a lot in a way many people disliked and still hate today. It was like GNOME now wants to be a tablet something something without being a tablet. It alienated them away from GNOME.

This is what Linus Torvalds had to say about it: "Could you also fork gnome, and support a gnome-2 environment? I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3."

So somebody just did that, he forked GNOME2 and continued its development as the MATE desktop environment. So MATE is just the continuation of GNOME2 until the modern days.

Another project forked from GNOME is Cinnamon desktop used by Mint Linux. This though has a different approach: it's using the GNOME3 infrastructure with own additions to deliver a more traditional desktop again.

Ubuntu was also using GNOME2 in the beginning, but before GNOME3 invented their own Unity thing. Since four years though GNOME is again their standard DE. By the way a few months ago GNOME entered officially now GNOME4, which was more evoluation than revolution.

What many people disliked a lot with the GNOME developers is their attitude, which often is similar to Apple and can be described "We do know best what our users need, period." So GNOME was always as project facing the danger that its developers were really oversimplifying things and cutting off easy access to options, which many people though might need in a daily use like the possibility to turn on duplex printing in a printing dialogue. Yup, they turned that off a long while ago.

On the other side is KDE - where GNOME might not offer much configurability, KDE always offered tons of it and some would say even a tad too much now and then. KDE3 was well received back then, then switch to KDE4 happened which basically was a big rewrite and switch to new UI versions. It took KDE4 a long, long time to gain all the major features of KDE3 back which many people liked and wanted. Nowadays this is done, and KDE5 the current version. This project is very active. GNOME and KDE have major releases every 6 months.

As interesting side note the KDE file manager, Konqueror, was always able to also render web pages using an own engine named KHTML. KHTML was in the early 2000s adopted by Apple for its own web browser, Safari. They reworked it a lot and rebranded it then as Webkit. Webkit later was also adopted by Google, and forked as Blink.

Then we've got Xfce, which is more a slow burn project but with continous development. Xfce considers itself a lightweight DE, so it wants to be less feature heavy but still be able to get the job done.

GNOME, KDE and Xfce are the most popular DEs, there are also many others like Deepin, LXDE, GNUstep and so on.

And people who consider a DE as too much for them just might be using a normal window manager instead, like IceWM, Windowmaker, Openbox, Fluxbox and so on. Also a concept which really got traction in the last years is the category of quite minimalistic tiling window managers like i3WM or Awesome.

Personally I do use of the time the MATE DE, it does just what I want it to do and that's it. People who are familar with GNOME2 will immediately feel at home there.

As example who might benefit from Linux on the desktop it's the typical Joe Average, who just uses his computer to surf the web, reading&writing emails and maybe watching some Netflix&Youtube, who has average computer skills and always seems to attract viruses and malware like a moth is drawn to the light.

So he's obsessed with registry cleaners, anti virus stuff and whatnot, because he always thinks his computer suffers from such stuff - probably also does many times. And most of the time his efforts to get his computer back in good shape just make it worse without intention. And Windows updates always annoy the heck out of him, when happening.

Give such a guy Linux, and he'll be very very thankful indeed as long as he just sticks with that type of usage behaviour.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu, but has the advantage of stripping out whatever invasive BS that Canonical is installing on Ubuntu at any given time.
I would still just use Ubuntu, since applications for Ubuntu may end up depending on that "invasive BS". You already can't remove systemd and that's the worst of it.

Also, Linux is for servers -not for desktops.
BSD is for servers, unless you need Docker.

Windows is not an option. Seriously. It is fundamentally broken at a low level and can not be depended on. Ubuntu is at the very least the fallback for when Apple finally goes completely mad and we have to shoot it.

That's what I usually do, and I've been fucking around with *nix for 23 years now.
That's, what, 1998?

At the moment, there's no advantage I can see to using Linux on your desktop -none.
It's cheaper than Mac OS, and it's not Windows.
 

Clara D.

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This old beast is likely to end up with Kubuntu. It should be powerful enough so I can go for something more fancy than XFCE, and KDE is a "standard" interface vs. Mint's Cinnamon/Mate choice, and I don't care for Gnome (or worse, Unity). As Argent said, Ubuntu is defacto these days, so there's minimal wrestling with building crap for it.

Having started with Slack after RedHat went odd (sometime in the 90s), I can say there's WAY less mucking about to get things to work than there used to be.

I had MintXFCE on an even shittier laptop - only thing that would never work was the Ricoh SD card reader (obsolete and only ever had windows drivers).
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Well when talking Linux we should also not forget that...

* Microsoft has now native Linux apps to offer: Teams and Edge
* Microsoft is now one of the biggest contributors to the Linux kernel
* Microsoft ships every Windows now with a Linux kernel as part of WSL
* Microsoft has created three different Linux distributions, which they are maintaining and using internally
* Microsoft runs big parts of its own cloud using Linux
* Microsoft right now is porting it's hypervisor Hyper-V to the Linux kernel, so that they can run Hyper-V with Linux as host OS (you could say they're tired of running their business with Windows in that area) and
* Microsoft nowadays owns Github.
 
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Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu, but has the advantage of stripping out whatever invasive BS that Canonical is installing on Ubuntu at any given time.

Also, Linux is for servers -not for desktops. Don't use Linux on your desktop unless you're interested in doing a fair amount of tweaking and customization. If you're not interested in tweaking etc, yet still interested in learning some Unix-like whatever these days, install WSL or use MacOS instead and save yourself the headache.

That's what I usually do, and I've been fucking around with *nix for 23 years now.

At the moment, there's no advantage I can see to using Linux on your desktop -none.
I want to second this, basically all of it including tinkering off and on with Linux for almost 20 years. I had it running as the only OS on my laptop a few times.

It's absolutely great for server style tasks. I run my webserver VPS on Linux. I also have a couple of Raspberry Pis that run Raspbian. They are great for unattended automated things. One of them runs a webserver that just hosts WordPress so I can archive copies of my main website stuff. It also runs some bash and python scripts on a schedule nicely doing different things. runs that Pihole Ad Blocking DNS distro. Another I use for just screwing around, like I tried running a Minecraft server on it and currently have an OpenSIM server on it.

But. Day to day can be kind of iffy. This is extra true with the Linux integration that Windows 10+ has now. I can now easily get the main advantage of Linux, the terminal, in Windows, using the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Plus the new Windows Terminal with tabbed interfacing and the ability to pre configure tabs is absolutely perfect. I can just click the little +sign and SSH to anything I have set up easily. It's beautiful.

I mean, if you have an extra machine, by all means do all the testing you want. Or just older hardware you want to use, then Linux is good for that. But I am not sure I can advise it for every day use.
 
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Ubuntu is absolutely reliable and capable enough as a sole desktop. As for capability...

I used FreeBSD for my only desktop from 1993 for the next ten years until I got Mac OS X Jaguar to run on my used Powermac 7600. It was still my main desktop for a couple of years after that until I got a Mac mini with a more reliable version of OS X in 2005. There were definitely bugs in the earlier versions of HFS+ in OS X. I found one of them myself, using the OpenDarwin source code.

Really, right now, the main reason I have for preferring Mac OS is Time Machine. That by itself is easily worth the sticker price.
 

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I don't know why anyone anywhere on the net recommends anything but Ubuntu for newbies. It's not the best, but it's definitely the least worst.
My guess is because it's been around for a decent amount of time and people are familiar with it.
I have it on my second desktop but am not a fan of Gnome now.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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I have it on my second desktop but am not a fan of Gnome now.
I'm not a fan of Gnome, neither the user interface nor their software development philosophy. But ESH.
 
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