Afghanistan Falls

[Khamon]

No, In Saigon they lost to a Communist regime backed by established Commie nations... In Kabul they lost to some loosly organized bandit warlords - This is far worse.

Also, Saigon begins with S, but Kabul begins with K. We might succeed in promoting democracy if that was the intended goal. But it’s only functional window dressing for capitalist gain.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

The change Afghanistan needs has to come from within.

This.

I mean, given how little resistance the Taliban encountered as they swept the country, it's as if everyone wants to be governed by them. Well, the men anyway. I'm sure the women had no say in the matter.

 

[Ranma Tardis]

Everything We did in Afghanistan and Iraq was for nothing. Worse than nothing as things are worse not even the same. I often wonder, are we the bad guys? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

But it’s only functional window dressing for capitalist gain.

Winner winner chicken dinner. But not as big a winner as a number of arms production industrialists.

 

[Sid]

IMHO there are two possibilities:
1. You want to 'fix' the situation because you think the situation is out of control in a country. Then you have to go in with the military and 'fix' it. But then you have the obligation to stay there as well (for a long time) and make sure things are 'fixed' properly. The US never left Germany completely after WWII. There are still American troops in that country, as friends and allies yes, but still there.

2. You think the change has to come from within. That is a valid thought based on the principle of independent countries having totally different histories, religions and cultures. But than you really have to stay out and accept that it will be bad and worrisome (in the eyes of the western beholders) in that country for maybe many generations to come.

Where it goes wrong is when those two approaches are mixed together into one.
The western world (NL included) went in fixed their own stakes in Afganistan (Bin Laden and Al Qaida), pretending to install some kind of democracy and then out again because there was nothing to gain for us westerners anymore.

The well being of Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria and others was never an issue of real concern, only particular western interests were.
We (as western nations) don't care about other people with different cultures. It is allways all about us.
(Mind you, I'm not talking about individual people of these western nations).

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Everything We did in Afghanistan and Iraq was for nothing. Worse than nothing as things are worse not even the same. I often wonder, are we the bad guys? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Wrong. It helped to grow your economy and boost weapons sales a great length. Also it helped to expand the military budget a lot. It also caused enough more instability in alrady instable regions of the world that it "justifies" even more the American presence.

 

[Sean Gorham]

I often wonder, are we the bad guys? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Joking aside: yes, yes we are the bad guys. We have been for a long time now. And it's not just America. America is merely the biggest contributor. You can throw in most of Europe into the mix, along with China and Japan. So long as we rely on capitalism and imperialism to exploit the global south and wage wars (military and economic) in the name of ever-increasing profits, we are the bad guys.

The West is willingly running down that road to hell; there are no good intentions involved. The West needs to own up to its mistakes and kill capitalism before it kills us. That change isn't going to come from our governments, though. They want to keep things just as they are, because it keeps making them money. As I like to put it, we're riding this plane all the way to the scene of the crash.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

West has two weeks to complete Afghanistan evacuation, say sources

UK defence secretary has conceded Britain will not be able to extract all eligible Afghan allies from country

www.theguardian.com

The UK defence secretary has admitted “some people will not get back” as Britain tries to evacuate Afghan allies from Kabul, along with its own citizens, with British forces aiming to repatriate more than 1,000 people a day.

Ben Wallace appeared to hold back tears as he spoke about the effort to repatriate Britons and process visas for Afghan interpreters and other staff following the Taliban takeover. About 4,000 British nationals and eligible Afghans are thought to be in the capital in need of rescue, with western forces having secured Kabul airport to prepare for their passage out of the country.

Wallace said it was a “really deep part of regret for me” that it would not be possible to extract all Afghans eligible to come to the UK, and many would have to make asylum applications after the evacuation, possibly from third countries.

A former soldier, the defence secretary has expressed more regret than Johnson and other members of the cabinet over the situation in Afghanistan.

Last week, he criticised the US decision to leave Afghanistan as a mistake that had handed the Taliban momentum. In contrast, Johnson has defended the US position and suggested it was a foregone conclusion that the Taliban would take over, arguing the west had completed its mission of reducing the threat from al-Qaida.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

‘The world needs to stand with us’: UK Afghans watch on as tragedy unfolds

Afghans who fled their homeland to settle in the UK express their fears for family and friends left behind

www.theguardian.com

Dr Mohammad Haqmal, a public health director and academic who lived under the Taliban in Afghanistan and is now settled in the UK, says his fears for his sisters and brothers and their families trapped in Kabul are too great to put into words.

“I’m getting messages through the night from my family. Everyone is desperate to try to escape to India or Pakistan but they cannot do so. We never thought things would go back to this situation in Afghanistan. I have not been able to eat anything for the last few days. Things are getting worse and worse. We thought the Afghan government would resist but they have not.”

He is also distraught on a professional level. He worked in conditions of great adversity when he was a public health director in Afghanistan on an initiative known as the $1 project, which saved the lives of 2,500 women over an 18-month period in two districts with the poorest health indicators in the world. He believes the Taliban will undo much of that public health work

Evernote link

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

I often wonder, are we the bad guys? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Wrong question. The proper question is: when are the Americans (meaning government&army) not the bad guys for a change?

You can throw in most of Europe into the mix, along with China and Japan.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG! China, meaning the People's republic of China, is a totally different thing compared to the West. By no means I am a fan of its government or what they are doing, but you've got to understand what they are doing, they are doing normally in totally different ways to the West and also sometimes with much different intentions.

If you don't believe this, just have a look at what China is doing in Africa, and go ask some locals who they do prefer as trade partners - Europe and it's former colonial powers, or China. I am pretty sure in 99.9% you'll get China as an answer, because in the eyes of the locals they are not only taking stuff, but also giving back and most importantly treating them like they are equals.

China is not the West - it's the Anti West, it's a state driven capitalist closed society. At the moment they are creating their own technosphere, and want to become global leaders in some quite advanced areas until 2025. China is China, and that's about it!

 

[detrius]

The US still thinks everything could work out like Germany, S. Korea or Japan... completely ignoring the fact even Germany only succeeded on a second try.

Not only that, we also already had a (albeit deeply flawed) democratic tradition, so it wasn't a completely foreign thing.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Wrong. It helped to grow your economy and boost weapons sales a great length

Yes it boosted weapon sales, but I dispute that this helped grow our economy. War expenditures come with tremendous opportunity costs. The money could have been much better spent on infrastructure or healthcare among many other things.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Wrong question. The proper question is: when are the Americans (meaning government&army) not the bad guys for a change?



Wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG! China, meaning the People's republic of China, is a totally different thing compared to the West. By no means I am a fan of its government or what they are doing, but you've got to understand what they are doing, they are doing normally in totally different ways to the West and also sometimes with much different intentions.

If you don't believe this, just have a look at what China is doing in Africa, and go ask some locals who they do prefer as trade partners - Europe and it's former colonial powers, or China. I am pretty sure in 99.9% you'll get China as an answer, because in the eyes of the locals they are not only taking stuff, but also giving back and most importantly treating them like they are equals.

China is not the West - it's the Anti West, it's a state driven capitalist closed society. At the moment they are creating their own technosphere, and want to become global leaders in some quite advanced areas until 2025. China is China, and that's about it!

Do you really think there's that big a difference between Chinese capitalists and capitalists everywhere else (except that locking up tens of thousands of Muslims in slave labour camps simply for being Muslims would probably be considered a step too far even in "deep red MAGA" states)?

Give the Belt and Road programme 20 years, if that, and the Chinese will be as roundly disliked in Africa as business partners as are the major Western economic powers.

You don't fix capitalism by recruiting a better kind of capitalist (or state capitalist).

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

The western world (NL included) went in fixed their own stakes in Afganistan (Bin Laden and Al Qaida), pretending to install some kind of democracy and then out again because there was nothing to gain for us westerners anymore.

Incidentally Afghanistan has untapped mineral deposits in lihium, copper, iron, cobalt and gold worth of around 1 trillion US$. 2010 US$. So there's quite much to gain there.

The pentagon thought Afghanistan might become even the "Saudi Arabia of Lithium."

U.S. Identifies Vast Mineral Riches in Afghanistan (Published 2010)

The nearly $1 trillion in untapped deposits are enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, officials said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Beebo Brink]

Harrowing commentary, well worth reading the complete unroll:

Thread by @LauraJedeed on Thread Reader App

Thread by @LauraJedeed: Boy howdy am I having a lot of feelings about Afghanistan today I deployed there twice--once in 2008 and once in 2009-10 It was already obvious that the Taliban would sweep through the...…

threadreaderapp.com

Boy howdy am I having a lot of feelings about Afghanistan today

I deployed there twice--once in 2008 and once in 2009-10

It was already obvious that the Taliban would sweep through the very instant we left

And here we are today

I am Team Get The Fuck Out Of Afghanistan which, as a friend pointed out to me today, has always been Team Taliban

It's Team Taliban or Team Stay Forever, there is no third team

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I will need to find it again, but there was a vety good article I read yesterday that went into why the national army fell so quickly. Their main point was that the US trained the local army to be like the NATO troops. That involved using intelligence assets and equipment to predict attacks, and using air power to counter threats and resupply a network of remote bases.

Once our aircraft and intelligence infrastructure was pulled out, they were unable to hold a string of small, exposed bases across the remote countryside. The Taliban began offering safe passage to soldiers who surrendered their weapons, and massacring any who refused the offer. With no hope of supplies and reenforcments and little attachment to the weak central government, the army just evaporated.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

I doubt anyone here has love for the Taliban and what they'll do to the Afghan people. But we're not going to effect any real change in the region with guns, soldiers, and bombs. We've seen the results of that multiple times. The change Afghanistan needs has to come from within.

This exactly. We made the very same mistakes in Vietnam, thinking copious American military force could actually "save" someone for democracy.

Maybe after all these decades we'll finally get the message - primitive tribal societies like the Afghans are not prepared for the sacrifices required in order to become pluralistic and democratic. That's nothing more than American hubris.

Basic facts regarding this development: It was Reagan who welcomed the Taliban to the White House, not Bush, Obama or Biden. He's the one who armed the religious extremists there. Trump actually invited them to Camp David, then gave away the whole ballgame because he's a moron.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Maybe after all these decades we'll finally get the message - primitive tribal societies like the Afghans are not prepared for the sacrifices required in order to become pluralistic and democratic. That's nothing more than American hubris.

Yeah... that hubris runs even deeper. WE aren't prepared to sacrifice to stay pluralistic and democratic, so we're in no position to try to impose our failed experiment on anyone else.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Maybe after all these decades we'll finally get the message - primitive tribal societies like the Afghans are not prepared for the sacrifices required in order to become pluralistic and democratic. That's nothing more than American hubris.

Also, calling them "primitive tribal societies" reeks of Western condescension. We may not like their culture, but it's far from "primitive". And given the terrain in which they live, tribal structure is probably the only feasible form of governance.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Yeah... that hubris runs even deeper. WE aren't prepared to sacrifice to stay pluralistic and democratic, so we're in no position to try to impose our failed experiment on anyone else.

I submit that we never have been in that position. The big issue, IMO, is that we seem to be incapable of honest self-evaluation as a nation. We see ourselves as the "good guys", even if we're burning down villages and carpet-bombing family weddings. I'm not sure what can change that attitude short of a major and very destructive war where we lose everything.