2020 Democratic Primary

Brenda Archer

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I'm not doing this disingenuous bullshit dance. I’m fine just not engaging you with the rest of them.
If you want to put me on ignore, go ahead. I wasn’t aiming my remarks at you personally.

I still don’t really understand what you are saying, it’s like you’re arguing about something from the past I wasn’t there for. I definitely wasn’t there for the fights in 2016. “Rest of them” who is this “them” you assume I’m part of?

I’m not editing my posts after the fact the way you did.

I’ve replied to the best of my understanding and energy, but I can’t do anything about “them.”
 
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Salome

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If you want to put me on ignore, go ahead. I wasn’t aiming my remarks at you personally.
Sure, sure. It’s perfectly normal to directly quote someone and use “you” in directed response, but not intend to aim anything at them.

I posted a data-based article which, apparently, disrupted your narrative for some reason. You then chose to put words in my mouth. Multiple times. Then ignored and didn’t bother to correct it when I addressed it directly. And now it’s all batting eyelashes “well, gosh, I didn’t mean you personally.”

I have zero patience left for this nonsense.

I’m not editing my posts after the fact the way you did.
Yeah, I added a graph to highlight that your generalization about Dems disliking Bernie because they were afraid of socialism had no basis in reality. How deceptive of me.

I’ve replied to the best of my understanding and energy, but I can’t do anything about “them.”
Don’t worry about it. Like I said, we don't need to engage anymore.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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After seeing Biden sweep through states where he didn't even have a ground game, I'm beginning to think none of your concerns are pertinent for this election cycle. Biden is not Trump, he's been part of a presidential administration that people remember with great nostalgia, and he's not a scary leftist.

I think huge numbers of people -- Democrat and Republican -- just want a reasonable replacement for Trump, someone safe. After the last four years of Trump, bland has remarkable appeal.
I hope I don't offend anyone and my brain is a bit foggy as I just woke, but as an analogy, let's liken Trump to an extremely abusive partner, in particular among the poor and every single minority that I can think of. He has attacked the poor from every possible angle. He has attacked every minority from every possible angle. I don't just mean things that people have been used to for decades now, but out and out assaults upon their livelihood, their health, their civil rights, you name it he has been an absolute nightmare.

In such a situation, many might simply want the abuse to stop. It might be hard to consider a brand new partner who is making fantastical promises when more basic needs are coming into play.
 

Beebo Brink

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Older people are lower income but they also refuse to believe anyone is coming for Medicare in spite of the right wing constantly saying that’s what they want to do. Is Biden really going to stick up for Medicare and Social Security? He’s been willing to compromise.
Setting aside the insinuation that Biden wouldn't fight for Medicare and Social Security, I think that this is the root of your disconnect from many other Democratic voters: "He's been willing to compromise." You see that as a bad thing.

And that's fine, you do you, but I get the sense you think "compromise" is a deal-breaker for everyone. And it's not. In fact, it's Sanders' unwillingness to compromise which is helping drive the wave of Democrats who voted against him. You don't have to change your own mind about this as a negative trait, but it's useful to recognize that this is a purely subjective opinion, and his willingness to compromise is one of the reasons so many people are voting for Biden over Sanders.

You believe that Sanders is the best chance for improving the lives of many people who desperately need help. I get that, and I admire your aspirations. I happen to believe you're wrong and that Sanders is incapable of bringing about the change he champions, because of his own character flaws. It doesn't mean I don't value the exact same changes you value, we just disagree about how we can get there.
 

Ariane

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I hope you are right on this.

As I see it, Sanders energizes people who don't vote to vote. Biden is boring and doesn't really inspire anything. I see Biden vs Trump as 2016 all over again.

But it looks like the DNC has made its choice. It damn well better be right.

We don't really have a left wing party in this country. We have a conservative party and a fascist party.
 

Shiloh Lyric

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I hope you are right on this.

As I see it, Sanders energizes people who don't vote to vote. Biden is boring and doesn't really inspire anything. I see Biden vs Trump as 2016 all over again.
Really? Because Bernie turned out less voters for himself in 2020 than he did in 2016. Seems to me, Biden has more delegates because more people are voting for him, and in many primaries so far, voter turnout was UP.

In most states, voter turnout was significantly higher this year than it was in 2016:

The Democratic voter surge was very real on Super Tuesday

I'm not great at math, but if Bernie is responsible for energizing people to vote, why do they appear to not be voting for HIM?

I mean...

What happened on Bernie’s 2016 turf?
Bernie Sanders promised to bring in younger voters. It’s not happening so far.
How Huge Voter Turnout Eluded Bernie Sanders on Super Tuesday
 

Anya Ristow

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I hope I don't offend anyone and my brain is a bit foggy as I just woke, but as an analogy, let's liken Trump to an extremely abusive partner, in particular among the poor and every single minority that I can think of. He has attacked the poor from every possible angle. He has attacked every minority from every possible angle. I don't just mean things that people have been used to for decades now, but out and out assaults upon their livelihood, their health, their civil rights, you name it he has been an absolute nightmare.

In such a situation, many might simply want the abuse to stop. It might be hard to consider a brand new partner who is making fantastical promises when more basic needs are coming into play.
The abusive bastard came from Uncle Ralf. He set me up with the fucker. My own damned cousin. You want me to turn away the fantastical partner I found outside the family for the other cousin Uncle Ralf is trying to set me up with? :p
 
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Anya Ristow

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Setting aside the insinuation that Biden wouldn't fight for Medicare and Social Security, I think that this is the root of your disconnect from many other Democratic voters: "He's been willing to compromise." You see that as a bad thing.
I can't tell where you're coming from. Are you denying Joe has put Social Security on the table in the past, or are you unaware of it, or are you thinking he won't do it again, or are you thinking it won't be a bad thing if he does it again?

You believe that Sanders is the best chance for improving the lives of many people who desperately need help. I get that, and I admire your aspirations. I happen to believe you're wrong and that Sanders is incapable of bringing about the change he champions
So...let's elect someone who doesn't even want what Sanders wants?

I've said it before. The first step to getting change is to elect someone who wants change.
 

Brian

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Biden is boring and doesn't really inspire anything.
That might mean he is more concerned with political policy than showboating, grandstanding, or entertaining.

I can agree that persuasive rhetoric is a requirement for campaigning, but the reality tv shows need to die off.
The good citizens inspire themselves to vote. Helping to kindle that fire in other people happens, but GOTV efforts have been more effective than the firebrand candidate which might ignite a spark that dies before the next round begins. This is why California has been good for Sanders. It's the one state he's had a real ground game in.

But it looks like the DNC has made its choice. It damn well better be right.
This bland dart throwing at the DNC is really getting old.
Democratic voters are interfering in the primaries. Get used to it.
 

Beebo Brink

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I can't tell where you're coming from.
And you flew right by the point I was making, which had nothing to do with Biden's record on social security. It was specifically about the trait of compromise and whether people consider it a negative or positive trait. Pointing out (as Brenda did) that Biden is willing to compromise explains why SHE doesn't want him as president, but this is not a deal-breaker for other people. Other people see compromise as the way you get things done.

You can argue about Biden's record on social-security all you want, but that's not the criteria that is informing my choice. It's irrelevant whether I agree with everything you say, it's not driving my choice. Policy is not my priority; character and temperament is more important to me. And of the two not-very-inspiring choices I now have, Sanders falls shorter of the mark than Biden. It's a very low bar, but Sanders managed to fall beneath it.

So...let's elect someone who doesn't even want what Sanders wants?
I'm down to "let's elect someone who creates the least amount of damage as compared to Donald Trump." I had hoped we'd elect someone like Warren who wants what *I* want AND is competent and could get things done in all the areas of a presidency, not just Sanders narrow focus on healthcare and income inequality. Those are important, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the presidency.

I think Sanders could be a worse president than Biden, despite the fact that Sanders wants good things for us all. Intentions are not enough, and I firmly believe -- more so each day -- that his presidency would be worse than a Biden presidency, albeit for different reasons. So yes, I'm willing to elect someone who doesn't want all that I want, in hopes he'll wreak less damage than the person who does want what I want.

As I've stressed before, ad nauseum, at this specific point in our country's history the best we can probably hope for is just a rebuilding of our governance structure. Nothing new, nothing bold, nothing immediately helpful, just cleaning up the Trump wreckage. And Biden will be better at that than Bernie.
 
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Spirits Rising

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Fantasy 2020: We can enact all the Progressive laws/institute all the Progressive systems we want if we just get the right candidate into office this time.

Reality 2020: The best we can do is a reversal of much of the damage already done.

Fantasy 2024: Repeat of Fantasy 2020, perhaps with the alteration of keeping the right candidate in office.

Reality 2024: If we're lucky we have enough seats in both the House and Senate to enact meaningful change.

Reality doesn't give a shit what you want or wish could happen.
 

Brenda Archer

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And you flew right by the point I was making, which had nothing to do with Biden's record on social security. It was specifically about the trait of compromise and whether people consider it a negative or positive trait. Pointing out (as Brenda did) that Biden is willing to compromise explains why SHE doesn't want him as president, but this is not a deal-breaker for other people. Other people see compromise as the way you get things done.

You can argue about Biden's record on social-security all you want, but that's not the criteria that is informing my choice. It's irrelevant whether I agree with everything you say, it's not driving my choice. Policy is not my priority; character and temperament is more important to me. And of the two not-very-inspiring choices I now have, Sanders falls shorter of the mark than Biden. It's a very low bar, but Sanders managed to fall beneath it.


I'm down to "let's elect someone who creates the least amount of damage as compared to Donald Trump." I had hoped we'd elect someone like Warren who wants what *I* want AND is competent and could get things done in all the areas of a presidency, not just Sanders narrow focus on healthcare and income inequality. Those are important, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the presidency.

I think Sanders could be a worse president than Biden, despite the fact that Sanders wants good things for us all. Intentions are not enough, and I firmly believe -- more so each day -- that his presidency would be worse than a Biden presidency, albeit for different reasons. So yes, I'm willing to elect someone who doesn't want all that I want, in hopes he'll create less than damage than the person who does want what I want.

As I've stressed before, ad nauseum, at this specific point in our country's history the best we can probably hope for is just a rebuilding of our governance structure. Nothing new, nothing bold, nothing immediately helpful, just cleaning up the Trump wreckage. And Biden will be better at that than Bernie.
I don’t mean to say I’m against all compromise. I meant to say I’m against compromise on Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. This is especially important since coronavirus will disproportionately strike the elderly and disabled.

There’s no larger purpose to be gained from cutting back programs in desperate need of expansion.

My other point, that I make repeatedly and which gets ignored, is that NO ONE can negotiate with the current Republican Party. *No one.*

Biden can’t do it. This is not the Republican Party of the Seventies or even the Eighties. They will not accept anything but submission, and that’s not compromise.

It’s possible Biden is fully aware of this and some of his fans are not, but either way, the Democrats must deal with the Republicans we have now.

If you feel Sanders is problematic as a person, that’s valid. He was not my choice until after Harris, Castro (my fave) and finally Warren fell by the wayside.

But Biden can’t bring back the old Republican Party. Flake couldn’t do it, he bailed. Romney couldn’t do it, and finally fell on his sword. It’s worth noticing here that Romney’s religion cost him many Republican votes. The same thing would of course happen to Sanders, if he was not so clearly left of center.

When Romney couldn’t get elected it was clear - this is a Christofascist Republican Party. And they *don’t negotiate.*
 

Brenda Archer

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Fantasy 2020: We can enact all the Progressive laws/institute all the Progressive systems we want if we just get the right candidate into office this time.

Reality 2020: The best we can do is a reversal of much of the damage already done.

Fantasy 2024: Repeat of Fantasy 2020, perhaps with the alteration of keeping the right candidate in office.

Reality 2024: If we're lucky we have enough seats in both the House and Senate to enact meaningful change.

Reality doesn't give a shit what you want or wish could happen.
Reality is that anything short of a sweep of Congress is a stalling tactic. Our dictator is not Trump, he’s McConnell.
 

Spirits Rising

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Reality is that anything short of a sweep of Congress is a stalling tactic. Our dictator is not Trump, he’s McConnell.
Reality 2024: If we're lucky we have enough seats in both the House and Senate to enact meaningful change.
Good luck getting such a sweep between now and 2024. If it happens, great. I'm not holding my breath.
 

Pamela

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Reality is that anything short of a sweep of Congress is a stalling tactic. Our dictator is not Trump, he’s McConnell.
What I have heard is that vulnerable down ballot people think Biden is their best bet, Sanders their worst.
 

Salome

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You can argue about Biden's record on social-security all you want, but that's not the criteria that is informing my choice.
I appreciate your point is addressing character, but we also shouldn’t cede the point that there’s nothing wrong with Biden’s record on Social Security. First of all, most of this nonsense about him being “willing to compromise” social security goes back to the Reagan era. Warren was a Republican. Bernie was spewing racist anti-immigrant nonsense and was in bed with the NRA. Are we supposed to give others a pass on their political evolutions but set different standards for Biden? Second, even the things he was “willing to compromise on” were addressing top earners. Not people on disability. Not people that are near the poverty line. And none of it ever happened.

His platform right now is to expand Social Security and there’s zero reason to doubt him. So these attacks are deliberately misleading and happening because Bernie is desperate. It’s pathetic and we should call it what what it is — the last gasp of a candidate who believed he could ignore the Dem core of black voters and sneak by in a crowded field who didn’t have a plan B when rank and file Democrats came together against his tactics.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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The abusive bastard came from Uncle Ralf. He set me up with the fucker. My own damned cousin. You want me to turn away the fantastical partner I found outside the family for the other cousin Uncle Ralf is trying to set me up with? :p
Uncle Ralf is the Democratic party and its voters? Well, yes. Should the other cousin become the nominee, yes I fully expect you and others to honor the wishes of the voters you claim solidarity with. I understand that many Bernie voters wish to completely overtake the Democratic party as outlined in other posts within this thread (Dementor?), and that it is quite fashionable to shit upon the party, but you really, really should not shit upon its rank and file.

Do what you want for the primaries. As I think we've all stated, that is when you vote for what you truly want. But when the dirt hits the road, I certainly hope that Bernie supporters will help us remove the huge threat to us all (Bernie and Biden supporter alike), unlike last time. Should they refuse again? I wouldn't expect them to be allowed back into the tent, pretending to be Democrats.

Fantastical - Imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality
 

Beebo Brink

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I don’t mean to say I’m against all compromise.
Thanks for that clarification, because that distinction wasn't clear to me.

As for all the rest, there's no way to run a controlled experiment to show who could win against Trump. We're all guided by our own best guesses.
 
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