Tilia, a prelude to decline?

[tetrasodium]

So I've been reading about the Tilia thing, i saw many people bragging how safe they are from the new Tos and that this doesn't affect them at all since they don't cash out. Now i would like to hear from people who actually cash out regularly, more importantly from creators who keep this platform alive. I own a small store, I don't earn a lot from it but now i found myself completely unable to process the credit unless i provide all of the data they want. I don't feel safe at all that i have to send most of my rl info to some US company, who can't even grantee any protection from data loss :

- 6.3. Tilia Service Interruptions and Data Loss Tilia may on occasion need to interrupt the Tilia Service with or without prior notice. You agree that Tilia will not be liable for any interruption of the Tilia Service (whether intentional or not), and you understand that except as may otherwise be specifically provided in these Terms, you will not be entitled to any refunds of fees or other compensation for interruption of the Tilia Service. Likewise, you agree that in the event of data loss, we will not be liable for any purported damage or harm arising therefrom. Tilia owns the bits and bytes of electronic data stored on the Servers, and accordingly will not be liable for any deletion, corruption or data loss that occurs in connection with the Tilia Service. Tilia will solely determine any disposition of the electronic data stored on the Servers and will have no obligation to reproduce, process, transfer, extract or recreate any data from the Servers, except in accordance with applicable law.

- The types of personal information we collect and share depend on the product or service you utilize from us. This information may can include:

1. Name, Social Security number, date of birth, postal address, email address, phone number, and any other information that we may use to contact you, verify your identity, or manage fraud and other types of risk;
2. Payment and transaction information, including financial account information (for instance, credit card and/or debit card account information, and payment provider account information;
3. Credit history and credit information that may be provided by identify verification sources to help complete our identification process; and,
4. Username, password, secret questions, secret answers, and other types of authenticating credentials to help verify your identity and the permissible use of our service or product.

I mean that's a lot of info for being able to withdraw those 50$ i make once in a while. Everything gets hacked it is just a matter of when and not if.

Even if i would to accept all of the risks involved the Next thing they are asking are one of documents for the proof of address, which i cant provide even if i wanted to because i don't have any of these:
Current utility bill, Bank, credit card, or financial statement, Cell phone bill, Rental agreement or lease, Tax form, Voter registration, Insurance statement.

What i want to ask creators and people who cash out is:
- Do you feel safe with all of this?
- Are you ok with the fact that your rl data might be hacked and stolen?
- If you are unable to provide the data they ask and therefore being unable to cash out, what are you going to with your store/business?

For me personally this will damage the platform, and if creators will start leaving/closing their activity, SL will go in a parabolic downtrend, but i might be wrong.

 

[Sid]

What i want to ask creators and people who cash out is:
- Do you feel safe with all of this?
- Are you ok with the fact that your rl data might be hacked and stolen?
- If you are unable to provide the data they ask and therefore being unable to cash out, what are you going to with your store/business?

IMHO it is not about how others feel about it. It is totally about how YOU feel about it.
If there are blokes who decide to jump from the top of the Empire State Building, do you feel more comfortable about jumping yourself then?
(I'm not implicating that using Tilia has the same impact as jumping from that building )

For me, they want way too much information for some simple money transactions.
If I had a well running SL business that provided hundreds of dollars each month, I think there would be not much choise for me other than to jump trough their hoops.
For an incidentally 50 bucks? No way José.
I would spend it inworld to buy more stuff, occasionally help out a friend, do some charity or party a bit.

But again, that is just me. Your situation and mind set can be completely different compared to mine.

So my advise: Think it over, and handle it your way.

 

[Tirellia]

For me personally this will damage the platform, and if creators will start leaving/closing their activity, SL will go in a parabolic downtrend, but i might be wrong.

No, it won't damage the platform. Far from it, it will strengthen the platform by ensuring compliance with numerous banking and money laundering regulations, particularly in the USA and Europe. Unlike Linden Lab, Tilia is a financial services company with all the responsibilities that entails. The security of the information provided to Tilia will be of a higher priority than information provided to Linden Lab precisely because of those responsibilities.

If any creators decide to leave over this, they will be the people who cash out $50 once in a while and those people have absolutely no impact on the SL economy. A few people might miss them but life, and Second Life , will go on. Take a look at a dozen of the major shopping events in SL. They have waiting lists. Creators are desperate to get into them. If one person decides to duck out of SL because of the new rules, there will be several to take their place.

If you're running a business, run it like a business. If it's a hobby, run it like a hobby and spend the proceeds in SL. Then you don't need to worry about Tilia.

 

[Beebo Brink]

If you're running a business, run it like a business. If it's a hobby, run it like a hobby and spend the proceeds in SL. Then you don't need to worry about Tilia.

The information they're asking for is not unreasonable for continued financial transactions involving real U.S. dollars. I still have a modest income from store sales on products I created years ago, but I made the decisions years ago to treat that as hobby money that never leaves SL. I use it pay my premium membership or extra tier, or even just donate Lindens to worthy creative efforts.

 

[tetrasodium]

The security of the information provided to Tilia will be of a higher priority than information provided to Linden Lab precisely because of those responsibilities.

This doesn't guarantee you any security at all, as a i said hacks and data breaches happen everyday even to bigger companies.

2018: A Year of Cyber Attacks

Finally I can summarize all the events and statistics collected in 2018, quite a complicated year from an infosec perspective. For those of you that keep asking...

www.hackmageddon.com

If any creators decide to leave over this, they will be the people who cash out $50 once in a while and those people have absolutely no impact on the SL economy.

Yeah like you expect people who started recently to make 1k$ per month? Are you even a creator? If not, speak for yourself. You just basically devalued people's work and effort.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Yeah like you expect people who started recently to make 1k$ per month? Are you even a creator? If not, speak for yourself. You just basically devalued people's work and effort.

You're taking that comment very personally, but it's quite true that SL is not going to be rocked by the absence of a few creators. People making substantially more than $1k per month have closed down shop for any number of reasons, and there's hardly a ripple to be felt from their departure. Those of us who have been in SL substantially longer than you have understand the ebbs and flows. It's actually the high number of creators on the platform that have devalued work and effort, due to the cutthroat competition.

Don't get distracted from your central question, which is how to deal with Tilia. I think Sid's advice was the best: do what is comfortable for you.

Data protection is a concern regardless of the institution -- there is no safe place. Which means my employer could be hacked and all my HR information exposed. But I choose that risk over being unemployed. We all draw our lines... where we can afford them.

 

[Tirellia]

Yeah like you expect people who started recently to make 1k$ per month? Are you even a creator? If not, speak for yourself. You just basically devalued people's work and effort.

No I don't expect anyone to make any particular amount of money, however long they have been in SL. My initial post might have appeared a little harsh and for that I apologise. I do mean that a $50 per month creator has no impact at all on the SL economy. That does not mean they are not good creators, worthy people or marvellous contributors to SL. But in economic terms they are irrelevant. I think that the loss of smaller creators makes for a lesser experience for people like me because I seek out small shops selling niche products. But the vast majority of people in SL wouldn't notice a thousand little stores closing, they will just keep shopping at the same hundred massive stores catering to their general needs.

 

[tetrasodium]

No I don't expect anyone to make any particular amount of money, however long they have been in SL. My initial post might have appeared a little harsh and for that I apologise. I do mean that a $50 per month creator has no impact at all on the SL economy. That does not mean they are not good creators, worthy people or marvellous contributors to SL. But in economic terms they are irrelevant. I think that the loss of smaller creators makes for a lesser experience for people like me because I seek out small shops selling niche products. But the vast majority of people in SL wouldn't notice a thousand little stores closing, they will just keep shopping at the same hundred massive stores catering to their general needs.

5.. 50.. 500.. 5000$, money are money and people should be able to withdraw them whatever the sum is. If you think that the closure of small stores won't have an impact on sl you will have to rethink that in a year. The "massive stores " of today were the small stores of yesterday.

 

[Sid]

5.. 50.. 500.. 5000$, money are money and people should be able to withdraw them whatever the sum is.

In an ideal world: Yes.
But Linden Lab has to deal with all kind of requirements, rules and regulations from all kind of RL authorities.
Like the VAT charges on Internet services delivered to people in the EU. The gambling rules in all kind of countries where they deliver SL services.
Same goes with money laundry and tax avoiding.
Question is as I wrote before: Is it worth it for you to go through the hassle at the moment?

When your SL business grows and you make the 100, 500 or 1000 USD or more each month, there will be a lot more paperwork and payments required by your tax authorities no matter in what country you live. When you start making serious money out of it, SL is no longer a game or hobby but a job or a real business. Hence registrations, administrations, VAT numbers (when in the EU), the whole shebang each rl business/entrepreneur has to struggle with.

 

[tetrasodium]

Is it worth it for you to go through the hassle at the moment?

It's not just about me here, it's a "hassle" for a lot of people. The thing is i can't provide some of the required documents, like the utility bill because it's not under my name therefore would be invalid.

 

[Beebo Brink]

5.. 50.. 500.. 5000$, money are money and people should be able to withdraw them whatever the sum is.

LOL! If you unexpectedly pull out $5,000 in cash from a RL bank account, you'll trigger an alert and can be asked to explain the withdrawal. Anything over $10,000 requires a report to the Feds. You're obviously unaware of the kinds of regulations that LL is dealing with and the free ride you've had for years. They're finally cleaning up their act, and there's really not anything you can do about it, because they're not going re-think these new policies

If you think that the closure of small stores won't have an impact on sl you will have to rethink that in a year. The "massive stores " of today were the small stores of yesterday.

It's irrelevant whether or not (mostly not) this has an impact on SL. LL really doesn't have any choice but to do this.

 

[Beebo Brink]

It's not just about me here, it's a "hassle" for a lot of people. The thing is i can't provide some of the required documents, like the utility bill because it's not under my name therefore would be invalid.

Ah, well then. Not being able to meet the requirements is not quite the same as not wanting to meet the requirements, but either way you're shit out of luck.

This isn't negotiable. LL is falling in line with increasing stringent Federal standards for money transactions. You can be pissed off about it, but one way or another you're going to have to deal with it, because it's not going away.

 

[tetrasodium]

either way you're shit out of luck.

Now go to tell this to your favorite store(s).

This isn't negotiable. LL is falling in line with increasing stringent Federal standards for money transactions. You can be pissed off about it, but one way or another you're going to have to deal with it, because it's not going away.
...It's irrelevant whether or not (mostly not) this has an impact on SL...

Hmm you seem so happy that LL just made it a lot harder to cash out for people. Look i got it that you don't give a damn but i would like to hear opinions from people who actually cash out as this thread was addressed to them, thanks.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

For me, they want way too much information for some simple money transactions.
If I had a well running SL business that provided hundreds of dollars each month, I think there would be not much choise for me other than to jump trough their hoops.
For an incidentally 50 bucks? No way José.
I would spend it inworld to buy more stuff, occasionally help out a friend, do some charity or party a bit.

(Remarks not aimed at Sid particularly -- just his comment provides a useful hook for the point I seek to make).

As I understand it, though, none of this is LL's doing.

Rather, they're obliged to comply with the US's "know your customer" regulations, which are intended to detect and disrupt money laundering operations, and these regulations have now been tightened up to the extent that LL are now legally obliged to collect this information for all their customers who are cashing out, whereas before the regulations meant they had only to collect the information of people making large cash-outs.

It's a bit like here in the UK, where I'm in the process of selling my old flat and buying a new one.

The fact that my solicitors know perfectly well who I am and where I live, since they handled the purchase of the old one for me (and have also written my will for me, and are executors of my estate, such as it is) doesn't release them from the obligation to insist I show them a current drivers licence or passport and proof of that I live where I say I do, because that's what our anti-money laundering regulations say they must do.

LL aren't making us produce all this information for the fun of it, after all.

There's useful thread in the official forums about Tilia:

Official Tilia Q&A Forum Thread (Related Questions Only)

There have been a lot of questions about our recent Tilia announcement , so we've created this thread as a way for Residents to formally submit their questions. Below we've summarized our existing responses pulled from another community-created thread so that they are better surfaced. As we respo...

community.secondlife.com

 

[Sid]

It's not just about me here, it's a "hassle" for a lot of people.

The "yous" I used were meant as general ones. Each individual SL user has to decide whether or not to accept Tilia and the accoring rules behind cashing out. L$ are no official currency and earned L$ are no real profit. USD are, so RL comes into play.

The thing is i can't provide some of the required documents, like the utility bill because it's not under my name therefore would be invalid.

You can always contact LL directly to see if there is any wiggle room, for instance by using other documents, so you can comply to the new rules.

 

[Clara D.]

Now go to tell this to your favorite store(s).

Hmm you seem so happy that LL just made it a lot harder to cash out for people. Look i got it that you don't give a damn but i would like to hear opinions from people who actually cash out as this thread was addressed to them, thanks.

Not sure what part of "Legally Required" you missed while having a go at people.

Oh, and fuck off with your "I DUNT WANNA HEER FROM PEEPL NOT AWN A BIDNEZ."

Welcome to VVO, you may want to consider being less of a wanker. Or not, we'll have fun with it either way.

 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

It's not about how I feel about it, it's about LL complying with the law. Online services and their transactions skated on the requirements to identify senders and recipients of financial transactions for ages, with the result that online transactions became a favored venue for money laundering - not necessarily on the huge scale where you see Russian oligarchs making shady real-estate deals but for "crooked money" on a smaller scale. Now the legal and regulatory requirements are starting to catch up. At the beginning, even though the L$ was convertible to real world currency LL were essentially unregulated. Then the tax man took an interest, as residents started making enough money that it appeared on their radar. The set of regulations LL operated under changed and so did the TOS to account for it. Now a fresh set of financial regulations apply and with them a whole set of data requirements - including security requirements FOR that data which would be impractical for LL to comply with across the board. So they do what every other company faced with a similar regulatory situation does, they spin off a subsidiary that CAN be compliant with those regulations and transfer all aspects of their business that are subject to those regulations to it.

I'm actually more comfortable submitting identifying info to Tilia than to their parent company, since Tilia is a money services company and, as such, is required to maintain a higher level of data security than LL itself and is also exposed to significantly higher liability in the case of a breach.

 

[Wesleytron]

Now go to tell this to your favorite store(s).

If my favourite stores don't - or can't - provide the information LL are legally required to collect, then yeah... they are shit out of luck.

Hmm you seem so happy that LL just made it a lot harder to cash out for people.

LL didn't make it harder. They caught up with what the law is required of them. They can't choose to be above the law and not do it

 

[Wesleytron]

If you think that the closure of small stores won't have an impact on sl.

Who knows? You might be right. But if so then LL is 'shit out of luck' as well - because they themselves can't just opt out of doing it simply because they 'don't like it'.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I'm a small business person in SL; I've never even cashed out, because while I've made enough to actually cash out, it was more fun to use the money inside sl, and I supported myself for a while that way, not having to buy lindens.

My issues with creating inside SL have nothing to do with Tillia, and a lot to do with other factors. But attacking people for stating facts [small hobby business do not affect the SL economy much at all, for example....] makes it seem like someone is upset.

My lack of success in SL, even with being told on numerous occasion that my stuff is good, doesn't make my stuff less quality; it does mean my lack of activity hasn't changed on thing in the economy at all.